Talk me off the ledge

[Jdzialak]

in the 2nd preset you mute the Out 3 block and unmute the amp block to use the FM9 internal amp block. scenes can mute/unmute blocks and switch the amp blocks channel. the FM9 cannot switch your external amps channel

Ahhhh... thanks! I'll try that.
I'm using a midi switcher for amp channel change....I think i can do that with Scene changes...i hope.

 

[Jdzialak]

I have presets that are designed for using my amp's preamp and then other presets that are set up using the same 4CM connections running a Fractal preamp into my amp's power amp section. So it's a simple preset change. Would that work for you? Or is it essential that both options exist as scenes in the same preset?

That would work for me in a scene change...preset would be cumbersome I think. Thanks!

 

[Jdzialak]

in the 2nd preset you mute the Out 3 block and unmute the amp block to use the FM9 internal amp block. scenes can mute/unmute blocks and switch the amp blocks channel. the FM9 cannot switch your external amps channel

Muting Out 3 would disable blocks before it though..and also my guitar signal?

 

[ChristThePhone]

Muting Out 3 would disable blocks before it though..and also my guitar signal?

no, muting out 3 will only stop the FM9 from sending anything to your amps preamp input. you might as well mute the input 3 block instead. same result

 

[Jdzialak]

no, muting out 3 will only stop the FM9 from sending anything to your amps preamp input. you might as well mute the input 3 block instead. same result

where do i then put the amp block?
The 2 paths being separate are confusing me. Sorry.

 

[Jdzialak]

The template I built that I posted earlier, worked great with the hum busters.
Trying to get midi changes working in each scene is next.
Looks like midi blocks will do the trick!

 

[Deadpool_25]

With the input 3 (or output 3) block bypassed (actually, in the preset don't even include the input/output 3 bocks at all) you're simply taking your amp's preamp out of the chain completely, so anything after input 1 will be going to your amp's FX loop. You can put the amp block anywhere in the chain--typically after drives and before delay and reverb. Basically you treat the preset that preset same as if you were going direct to FOH or to an interface (but without a cab block of course).

 

[Jdzialak]

With the input 3 (or output 3) block bypassed (actually, in the preset don't even include the input/output 3 bocks at all) you're simply taking your amp's preamp out of the chain completely, so anything after input 1 will be going to your amp's FX loop. You can put the amp block anywhere in the chain--typically after drives and before delay and reverb. Basically you treat the preset that preset same as if you were going direct to FOH or to an interface (but without a cab block of course).

Thanks. I have the outs bypassed per scene. Preset changes were too abrupt.
Thanks for all of the help. I have it working well now.
Gig report after tomorrow nights show.
Building a separate snake loom with the hum busters.
Hopefully selling the helix soon. 😁

 

[Jdzialak]

Holy Crap. I just had an epiphany…

I can have 4 scenes with My tube amp channels, Clean, Crunch, Gain, and Solo. And also on the same 4 buttons… 4 scenes that I used last week into the amps power amp. I used a Vox, JCM800, and JVM or Cameron or 5153, and then Solo. And I can leave them in either state. So all scenes are models… or real amps…. Or any combination. And decide on stage what I like best. 😳

 

[ChristThePhone]

Holy Crap. I just had an epiphany…

I can have 4 scenes with My tube amp channels, Clean, Crunch, Gain, and Solo. And also on the same 4 buttons… 4 scenes that I used last week into the amps power amp. I used a Vox, JCM800, and JVM or Cameron or 5153, and then Solo. And I can leave them in either state. So all scenes are models… or real amps…. Or any combination. And decide on stage what I like best. 😳

Option paralysis ?

 

[Bodde]

@Jdzialak: So was the problem with the noise caused by the cables after all?

 

[Jdzialak]

@Jdzialak: So was the problem with the noise caused by the cables after all?

Yep. It would appear not all cables are created equal. Lol.

 

[Jdzialak]

Option paralysis ?

Lol.
I think setting it up this way is the fast track for me determining if using the fractal sounds alone will permanently replace my tube amps. Having the option to switch between these two options on stage, where it counts, is going to be interesting.

What I’m planning on doing tonight, is having the four available scenes be my normal tube amp sounds with the fractal as FX for a few songs. Then switching to the four fractal sounds as my four scenes and seeing how it feels and what I notice.
In the end, I really only use two different sounds, plus a solo boost, with various FX sprinkled in.
But when using the fractal sounds exclusively last weekend, I was second-guessing whether they were as good as my amp. Now I can have direct comparison on stage.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Lol.
I think setting it up this way is the fast track for me determining if using the fractal sounds alone will permanently replace my tube amps. Having the option to switch between these two options on stage, where it counts, is going to be interesting.

What I’m planning on doing tonight, is having the four available scenes be my normal tube amp sounds with the fractal as FX for a few songs. Then switching to the four fractal sounds as my four scenes and seeing how it feels and what I notice.
In the end, I really only use two different sounds, plus a solo boost, with various FX sprinkled in.
But when using the fractal sounds exclusively last weekend, I was second-guessing whether they were as good as my amp. Now I can have direct comparison on stage.

Anxious to hear how it works out for ya! I knew once Flint got one and started praising it, it was a matter of time before it spread to the rest of Team Shirtless. I’d love to hear what Chuck is doing with his but it’s probably covered in lube and doesn’t work anymore.

 

[Den]

Lol.
I think setting it up this way is the fast track for me determining if using the fractal sounds alone will permanently replace my tube amps. Having the option to switch between these two options on stage, where it counts, is going to be interesting.

What I’m planning on doing tonight, is having the four available scenes be my normal tube amp sounds with the fractal as FX for a few songs. Then switching to the four fractal sounds as my four scenes and seeing how it feels and what I notice.
In the end, I really only use two different sounds, plus a solo boost, with various FX sprinkled in.
But when using the fractal sounds exclusively last weekend, I was second-guessing whether they were as good as my amp. Now I can have direct comparison on stage.

Happy you sorted out the noise issues. This is exactly what I love about 4CM. You have almost unlimited options in amp tones, effects chains, etc. and everything is right at your feet a few clicks away. And to my ears, running through a tube power amp makes all the difference in tone and feel.

The FM9 is an amazing tool set up like this with a good amp. Great times to be playing guitar!!

 

[Jdzialak]

It worked out great!
I need to refine and adjust a few things, since stage volume was little different than basement volume.
Basically I was auditioning amp models vs my real amp for different tones.

Good news/ Good news. ..

The amp still wins most of the time, but the fractal flexibility and extra options make 4CM with the FM9 an incredible ALL IN 1 rig.

The amp models were a little too slick, or hifi… dynamics were a bit different … may also be that I need to tweak a few things.
Most of the amp models were similar to what my amp does, to compare, but adding a Vox or Cameron in addition to my amp was the real winner.

The FM9 can hang on its own direct, or as a preamp into my amp, but really kills in 4CM.

I have many amps that I rotate for different gigs, and also just for variety.
This will be a great addition, and likely replace my Helix.
I’m using midi blocks to change amp channels with the Suhr midi control box.

Thanks for everyone’s input and advice here.

 

[TheOtherDave]

But strictly from an audience perspective, from what I've heard, the live sound suffers with a stage amp.

Often, yes, but not necessarily…

Stage volume takes away some of the FoH engineer’s control since there’s more “noise” competing with the PA. WRT traditional guitar cabs specifically, the main problem is beaming. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the guitars sound great standing next to the guitarist, but be an absolute ice pick to the ear when I duck my head down to the level of the audience’s heads.

Once that problem is solved, though, for the general audience (and assuming a good engineer), stage noise is at best a wash — depends on how close the stage mix is to the PA mix.

However, for the portion of the audience who’s right up against especially the center of the stage, they’re not really hearing the PA that well anyway, unless there are “fill” speakers covering just that small area. Good stage sound at an appropriate volume (and there’s a lot to unpack in that) can mitigate the need for fill speakers to some degree. Enough to maybe not need to incur their added cost and complexity, depending on the situation.

 

[TheOtherDave]

i can never understand buying the best modeler there is and getting limited in one amp with 4cm...

It doesn’t have to… just bring your amp’s preamp into or out of your signal chain same as any other block. Or get a reactive load box, treat the whole “amp -> load box” chain as an external amp block, run it through a cab block, and go direct.

 

[Jdzialak]

It doesn’t have to… just bring your amp’s preamp into or out of your signal chain same as any other block. Or get a reactive load box, treat the whole “amp -> load box” chain as an external amp block, run it through a cab block, and go direct.

Exactly what I did.
My amps output goes to a reactive load, then to FOH. I haven’t used a microphone in a couple of years.

The reactive load signal also goes to my left ear, and the FM9 signal goes to my right ear so I’m in stereo with two different speaker IRs. FOH gets reactive load, and that is the only path with a solo boost, since I don’t need solo boost in both ears. That would be too overpowering as I have learned in the past.

I’ve been doing this with helix for at least three years.

I’ve only ever used amp models from the helix when using single channel heads. Currently, I have enough multi channel heads that I was just using it for FX.

Honestly, I have a pretty elaborate set up for just being in a cover band playing bars in western New York. I’m also an original band, but the cover band plays every week.

 

[Ludwig77]

Not everyone needs multiple amp models. And to my ears, amps still sound better than a modeler with an FRFR monitor. But there are definitely cases where going direct with a modeler is the way to go. It’s great to have a tool that can facilitate multiple use cases, and do so with excellent results.

But a modeler into an FRFR monitor is usually not what the audience hears.