Talk me off the ledge

[Jdzialak]

First gig in the books last night. Sounded great. Not quite like my tube amps, but some of the tones I was getting were pretty great. Especially in my IEMs.
If I can get the 4CM working when the hum busters arrive this rig will be amazing.

Today I have a festival gig with my other band. Bands all day. One set. Quick change over etc.
So I’m just bringing a guitar and the FM9 and I’m gonna use a powered stage monitor.
Such a light pack, I feel like I’m missing something. 😳

 

[TubeStack]

I tried my new FM9 Turbo in 4cm with my Mesa Electra Dyne yesterday and there is a huge amount of ground hum. I’m using Fractal Humbuster cables. The hum is so strong and loud it’s basically unusable.

It’s way louder hum than the FM3 with the same setup, and that was without Humbuster cables.

I have a Morley Hum X on the way, but I’m not getting my hopes up.

Hey, just reporting back that the Morley Hum X completely solved the problem for me. It’s now insanely quiet with my amp and I’m having a blast with 4cm.

 

[Jdzialak]

Just finished my afternoon festival gig. Went direct with an Electrovoice wedge on stage for stage volume.
FOH guy was raving about the sound. And I don’t even have this thing really dialed in super good yet after only having it for about two weeks.
Call me a fan.
HumBuster cables should be here Monday or Tuesday so I’ll get sorted with 4CM soon I hope, but this is a great option for grab and go shows

 

[Greg Jones]

Long time helix user as my main FX board and amp switcher with tube amps for live gigs. No amp models.
Wanted to slim down so I got the FM9.
UI is deep. 4CM is a nightmare. Hum busters aren’t helping. 😔
And the scenes don’t work like helix snapshots. I can’t save different delay values in each scene without using ABCD. 
The 4CM template with hum busters is a noisy mess.
I’m gonna try an EBtech dual hum eliminator next.

Direct sounds are great, but that’s 10% of my needs.

I've owned the Helix and have a Stomp as a backup to my FM9.

I agree that snapshots are much easier to work with than scenes. However, the FM-edit is a much better experience than editing with the Helix editor.

The amp quality are arguably eclose between the units, but we have way more options (not just with amps but with effects) with Fractal. And the quality of the Fractal effects are bar none.

Depends upon your needs and goals.

 

[ConstantM]

i can never understand buying the best modeler there is and getting limited in one amp with 4cm...

 

[ethomas1013]

Not everyone needs multiple amp models. And to my ears, amps still sound better than a modeler with an FRFR monitor. But there are definitely cases where going direct with a modeler is the way to go. It’s great to have a tool that can facilitate multiple use cases, and do so with excellent results.

 

[TubeStack]

i can never understand buying the best modeler there is and getting limited in one amp with 4cm...

It's just not the same experience, and sometimes either one is better for a given situation, so why not be able to have both.

 

[Jdzialak]

I love the sound of my tube amps. But the flexibility of having different preamps from the fractal using 4CM is very appealing.

 

[Jdzialak]

From Today

 

[Den]

i can never understand buying the best modeler there is and getting limited in one amp with 4cm...

A few thoughts:

• Some players are very happy with the tones of their amp and enjoy using a top-quality modeler for its effects. I find it amazing to have almost unlimited high-quality effects in a compact pedalboard with no wiring and noise issues. I also love having the amazing flexibility to design any number of virtual pedalboards easy to access with a stomp or two.
• Depending on the design of the amp you're using, there are also a multitude of amp models that can sound awesome run through the effects loop and power amp. Again, depending on the type and variety of tones a player prefers, this can be a super flexible and overall cost-effective rig for many folks, myself included.

 

[ConstantM]

is it worth though the hassle when a unit like the axe fx 3 can at least recreate very faithfully almost any amp and even some times improve on it?

 

[boyedav]

When I've had noise issues with 4CM though, it's always been a ground loop. I made a few cables with the ground disconnect at one end to help troubleshoot. Whenever I've had a ground loop, whether with the Fractal gear or something else, they're indispensable in helping determine which path (and which end of the path) to lift.

 

[sprint]

When I've had noise issues with 4CM though, it's always been a ground loop. I made a few cables with the ground disconnect at one end to help troubleshoot. Whenever I've had a ground loop, whether with the Fractal gear or something else, they're indispensable in helping determine which path (and which end of the path) to lift.

ground loop challenged here - how would one use such a modified cable to troubleshoot.

 

[Deadpool_25]

i can never understand buying the best modeler there is and getting limited in one amp with 4cm...

Part of what makes it the best modeler is how versatile it is. Nothing at all wrong with using 4CM or any other thing you choose to do with it. Isn't Petrucci using Fractal for FX only? That's a perfectly valid use case as well.

Also you do realize that 4CM allows you to use your real amp's preamp or bypass it and use models right? You're actually less limited using 4CM.

With that said, the FM3 manual kinda says the same thing you're saying: the preamp models sound just as good. I tend to agree, at least for my own use/opinion. Once I was able to dial in the model to sound just like my Tremoverb, 6505, and EVH 50w I moved away from 4CM. I 'm now running into a stereo power amp and a pair of great guitar cabs and it sounds glorious (I don't need no stinkin tone matching/capturing/profiling).

 

[unix-guy]

Isn't Petrucci using Fractal for FX only?

And Vai... And Satch... Guthrie's currently touring with FM9 and FRFR only. It's a tool - use it whatever way works for you

 

[TSJMajesty]

WRT 4CM and being limited to just your amp, vs. going FRFR and direct to FOH and having different amp models to choose from, I've heard a few bands in the past couple years that used to have miked amps on-stage, and then switched to direct, using modelers, and without exception, from the very first notes they played, their sound was SO much better with the latter setup. The clarity was amazing!

If you're still using live amps, but miked in an ISO setting, then that would be different. But strictly from an audience perspective, from what I've heard, the live sound suffers with a stage amp.

 

[Bodde]

But strictly from an audience perspective, from what I've heard, the live sound suffers with a stage amp.

I don’t agree. It’s easier for a soundman because there is no noise on stage from the amps but it doesn’t always sound better for the audience. For example I think Metallica sounded better with real amps than they do now with modelers.

To the OP: let us know what caused the problems with the 4 cable method. Was it the cables? I am curious.

 

[boyedav]

ground loop challenged here - how would one use such a modified cable to troubleshoot.

I just swap out one cable at a time with one of my ground lifted cables to see what makes a difference. That'll help you figure out which loop(s) need to be broken to alleviate the noise. It's probably not going to be the very first cable in the chain, which is usually the guitar to whatever its first input is. It's going to be the cable to the amp input, or one of the effects loop cables.

 

[FPFL]

I'd say get off the 4CM ledge to anybody, its way more trouble than its worth for live.
For home or studio, sure whatever brings it, but that stuff isn't moving which makes all the difference IME.

The radical simplicity of "all in the box" is its own joy. Less setup, less breakdown, less to carry, less to go wrong.
More time to prep, more space to focus on playing and staying engaged with the moment.

 

[Den]

I'd say get off the 4CM ledge to anybody, its way more trouble than its worth for live.
For home or studio, sure whatever brings it, but that stuff isn't moving which makes all the difference IME.

The radical simplicity of "all in the box" is its own joy. Less setup, less breakdown, less to carry, less to go wrong.
More time to prep, more space to focus on playing and staying engaged with the moment.

I understand why you and many others feel this way, but the best solution is relative to what each of us feels is "worth it" for our own situation. A few thoughts:

• For those who prefer using an amp in a live situation, 4CM is simply replacing the pedalboard with a modeler. I made up a snake with the cables between my FM9 and the amp, so it only takes a few minutes to set up and tear down.
• Those who bring a powered speaker or two along are carrying the same amount of gear. I don't see any more simplicity here.
• In my experience through more than 50 years of playing guitar, a good amp is a very reliable thing. I've seen more PA speakers fail than guitar amps. And having a modeler there allows the option of running that on its own if an amp were to fail.
• If you're going to run directly to the house PA system, then yes, you're carrying less gear. However, I find that building tones at home through FRFR doesn't always translate well to another PA system. When that occurs, you either live with tones that don't inspire you, or you're doing last-minute tweaking at the gig, which can be stressful, and often still ends up with tones you don't like.
• Using my amp tones, which I absolutely love, inspires me more and gives me more consistency. To me and many others, this allows us to "focus on playing and staying engaged with the moment."
• As always, what sounds good and what brings the most joy is a personal thing. For many of us "all in the box" is not significant in and of itself.
• I never cease to enjoy the fact that great music can be made with a cheap guitar running directly into a simple amp, or with modelers of all types, huge rack rigs, massive amp stacks, and almost everything else we can imagine. Whatever you love as a player, for whatever reasons, is the right choice for you.