Switching scenes and amp channels questions

B

Bigeclipse

Member
I am currently a line 6 helix user, yes I know...blasphemy! haha. These questions are more for the FM3 (I am on the wait list) but since I hear the FM3 will be similar to the AXiii with regards to scenes and amp channels I wanted to ask the following questions to see if im understanding them correctly. So let me give a little background of how I use my helix. In the helix, I often times make patches with 2 completely different amps (not running in parallel...I already know FM3 cant do this). The reason I run 2 amps is I might like a particular amps clean sound but hate it's dirty channel etc so I will setup a clean amp I like and a dirty amp I like. In the helix you have what are called snapshots, which I guess are the same thing as fractal "Scenes". So In the helix I can have one snapshot with the one amp on and the other off and whatever effects running and then I can click to another snapshot to shut that one amp off and turn the other amp on plus whatever I want to happen to those effects. I can also have the parameters of the amps and effects changing in those snapshots as well. So for example, I could have 1 snapshot have amp "A" mids completely scooped and then click to another snapshot where amp "A"s mids are not scooped....same things goes with the FX parameters as well. So here are my questions:

1. Can you have parameters (amp, cabs, FX) changing within scenes? Not just turning them on and off.
2. I am confused by amp channels within a "Amp block". From what I read, in the FM3 you will be able to have four different amps in one amp block on the different channels. Does this mean I could have a "scene" where one of those amp channels is selected and then a different "scene" where I switch to a different amp under the other channel? If the answer here is yes, is this switch seamless (no lag)? Can you have parameters of each amp also changing within different scenes similar to question 1 but now not only changing channels but changing parameters of those channels so for example lets say I have "4 scenes" using 2 different amps on two channels. Scenes 1 and 2 use the same channel/amp but the parameters of that amp are changing and then scenes 3 and 4 use the second amp with it's parameters changing? Thanks!
 
there is a slight mute when changing Channels for most blocks. this just has to happen as parameters are making sound and then change suddenly. any system that does that has clicks and pops as multiple things change in an instant. to get rid of clicks and pops, a very short audio gap or mute is used. it is similar to many real guitar amps changing channels. it is true that some lower quality devices that aren't using as much CPU can change more seamlessly. but the Axe sounds good for a reason, and this reason uses CPU which means it needs to mute briefly when changing channels.

for some it's a deal breaker. for many it isn't. you can use Scene Controllers (think of it like an automatic expression pedal, kind of) to adjust some parameters when changing Scenes. lately i've been using a Vox type amp with a low Gain on my clean Scene, then on another Scene, the Scene Controller changes the Gain a bit higher, and the same one reduces the overall Volume a bit.

so there are ways to avoid the gap. but at the base level of changing amps, yes, there is a small audio gap which, to me, is par for the course on most real and modeling gear i've used.
 
chris said:
there is a slight mute when changing Channels for most blocks. this just has to happen as parameters are making sound and then change suddenly. any system that does that has clicks and pops as multiple things change in an instant. to get rid of clicks and pops, a very short audio gap or mute is used. it is similar to many real guitar amps changing channels. it is true that some lower quality devices that aren't using as much CPU can change more seamlessly. but the Axe sounds good for a reason, and this reason uses CPU which means it needs to mute briefly when changing channels.

for some it's a deal breaker. for many it isn't. you can use Scene Controllers (think of it like an automatic expression pedal, kind of) to adjust some parameters when changing Scenes. lately i've been using a Vox type amp with a low Gain on my clean Scene, then on another Scene, the Scene Controller changes the Gain a bit higher, and the same one reduces the overall Volume a bit.

so there are ways to avoid the gap. but at the base level of changing amps, yes, there is a small audio gap which, to me, is par for the course on most real and modeling gear i've used.
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hmm how long of a mute or pause is it? The helix has no discernable lag when I snapshot with different amps including different amp parameters. it seems silly to me that line6 can figure this out but fractal cant UNLESS maybe this mute is super fast that you are talking about and is no big deal. If its like using a footswitch on an amp then that is fine by me but if it is like the lag time when switching presets, that is a definite deal breaker to me.
 
Bigeclipse said:
hmm how long of a mute or pause is it? The helix has no discernable lag when I snapshot with different amps including different amp parameters. it seems silly to me that line6 can figure this out but fractal cant UNLESS maybe this mute is super fast that you are talking about and is no big deal. If its like using a footswitch on an amp then that is fine by me but if it is like the lag time when switching presets, that is a definite deal breaker to me.
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as i mentioned, some other gear isn't doing the level of processing that the Axe series does.

the gap is 1 minute long. :)

*that is a joke*
 
chris said:
as i mentioned, some other gear isn't doing the level of processing that the Axe series does.

the gap is 1 minute long. :)

*that is a joke*
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lol so what kind a momentary mute or pause are we talking about? If im playing a clean tone and then jumping into a solo using a different scene which switches channels and such...will I have time to do this in the middle of a song or no?
 
Bigeclipse said:
what kind a momentary mute or pause are we talking about?
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Amp channel switching time was ~70 ms when I last checked a couple months ago (firmware 3.01). About 35 ms silence plus a fade-out and fade-in each around 17-18 ms.

 
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Bigeclipse said:
So for example, I could have 1 snapshot have amp "A" mids completely scooped and then click to another snapshot where amp "A"s mids are not scooped....same things goes with the FX parameters as well.
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You cannot do this directly. All block parameters are "common" across all scenes in a preset for a given block channel.

However, for parameters that allow modifier assignment (many) you can use Scene Controllers to automatically "adjust" settings depending on the scene you're in. Alternately, you can just use a different channel of the block with different settings.

The key to understanding scenes: they only control the ON/OFF and Channel states of blocks.
 
To be 100% clear, when you want to place an “amp” on the grid of a preset within the Axe FX (and the FM3), you place an “Amp Block”. The Amp Block must be configured to specify which “Amp Model(s)” (i.e. Fender Deluxe ‘Verb, Marshall JVM 410, etc) should be used. There are around 260 Amp Models in the Axe FX III.

The FM 3 only supports one Amp Block, however the Amp Block has 4 “Channels”. A Channel stores the full set of parameters (settings) for a given block. The Amp Model is one of many parameters for an Amp Block. You could have Channel ‘A’ on an Amp Block configured to use a Mesa Boogie Amp Model and Channel ‘B’ configured to use a Fender Reverb. You would change “amps” by changing Channels on the Amp Block.

“Scenes” are a different beast. A Scene stores among other things, the Bypass State and Channel of each Block in a Preset. This means that you can change the Channel of a Block by changing the Scene. An important thing to understand is that within a given Scene, different Blocks do not all have to be on the same Channel. You could have Amp Block 1 on Channel ‘A’ and Delay 1 on Channel ‘B’ within the same Scene. This creates a very flexible system for building Scenes.

An alternative for controlling specific parameters on a Block are Scene Controllers. That is a more advanced topic though. I believe that Scene Controllers are more transparent than Channels when switching.

TL;DR - Yes, the FM3 will be able to host multiple amps within a single preset. The way it goes about doing it will be different than what you are used to on the Helix.
 
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Channels within a block can be dialed in completely differently. Even different amp models. You can have different channels in different scenes.

The"gap" when switching channels is so short that you'll only hear it if a note is ringing out when you switch channels. Real tube amps don't change channels any faster.
 
Bigeclipse said:
hmm how long of a mute or pause is it? The helix has no discernable lag when I snapshot with different amps including different amp parameters. it seems silly to me that line6 can figure this out but fractal cant UNLESS maybe this mute is super fast that you are talking about and is no big deal. If its like using a footswitch on an amp then that is fine by me but if it is like the lag time when switching presets, that is a definite deal breaker to me.
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It depends on how sensitive you are to any lag when changing parameters. I'm extremely sensitive to lag when playing live. I played through a Helix for several years before switching to an XL+, and now a 3. I had the Helix prior to snapshots. Once snapshots were implemented, I always ran parallel amps in my presets, so I could switch via snapshots with the least amount of lag. If you adjust your time-based effects for spillover, that helps, but I could still detect just a hint of lag in the Helix when switching snapshots. The amount of lag would vary slightly, depending on what parameters (or amps) were being switched. There is definitely a hint of lag in the XL+ and the 3, but it's very, very minimal. I don't notice it live, unless I'm specifically listening for it. Also, sometimes what is perceived as "lag", is not really lag. If you have dramatic changes happening (think crystal clean to super high gain amp, or dramatic changes in time-based effects), sometimes what you're hearing is just the natural change in the sound of the signal path. If the lag in the Helix doesn't bother you, I'm certain you wouldn't be bothered by the XL+ or the 3.
 
Bakerman said:
Amp channel switching time was ~70 ms when I last checked a couple months ago (firmware 3.01). About 35 ms silence plus a fade-out and fade-in each around 17-18 ms.

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This was significantly improved with FW 5.0. Plus, Cliff changed the behavior so that only the wet signal is muted and the dry signal passes through. It’s a total non-issue now as far as I am concerned. YMMV.
 
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