Switching between clean and dirty amp settings

Easy J

Member
I am new to the AX8 and am working on setting up some presets for live use. I typically use a Mesa amp with a pedalboard or a Pod HD500 with a DXR10. I often need a clean and a distorted sound available to me for a song. With my tube amp, I switch between the clean and distorted channels. With the Pod, I switch between patches. What are the preferable methods of switching quickly between clean and distorted sounds using the AX8? I understand that there is a delay when changing patches, and that many use a “scene” and stay within the scene for a song. Is there an option for switching between the clean and distorted channel of an amp in a scene? I am looking for the best practical method(s) to handle this using the AX8.
 
If you are sensitive to any audio gap, your best bet is to use the Controllers - either Scene controllers or Control Switches. Have them control the gain, maybe input trip, cab volume. I find Control Switches the easiest to deal with as opposed to Scene Controllers.
 
Good advice. I'll throw in my 2 cents: Since you're fairly new to AX8 I'd suggest you use scenes to switch between a clean and dirty amp. The audio gap has gotten better with the latest firmware. Try your dirty amp set to the X amp and a clean amp set to the Y amp. Add your choice of OD's or boosts to sculpt your tone within the scene. Once you've set up a preset with let's say a dirty, lead and clean scene and tweak those to your liking you can decide if the gap is too much for you. Then I'd start looking into more advanced methods as @geetarplayer mentioned. When you get into the advanced stuff you can eliminate the gap almost completely.

@Smittefar has a nice tutorial that uses scene controllers to increase/decrease gain to make one amp clean, dirty and lead. It's a great video to follow along and build your own preset. I hope he doesn't mind me posting the link to it. I have it saved in my notes but it can be found by searching.

 
Presets are typically used for songs, scenes and controllers within a preset during a song. The X/Y switching works great, about as seamless as you can get. If you're wanting more things to change than just the amp, a control switch works great. I've found them easier than scene controllers but there are others who prefer scene controllers. Any modifier can be attached to them as well as bypass states of effects. Only you can determine which will work better for you.

An easy way to have a 4 "channel" amp using Control Switches would be:

Channel 1 - Clean - X state of amp model
Channel 2 - Rhythm - X state of amp model with Control Switch 1 attached to Gain, Boost (if used, attach modifier for Level to compenstate for the increased volume) Drive pedal or Saturation parameter.
Channel 3 - Lead - Y state of amp model
Channel 4 - Solo - Y state of amp model with Control Switch 2 attached to Boost, Drive pedal or Saturation and 3 dB volume boost in Cab Block

For quicker changes, assign Scene 1/2 Toggle to a footswitch, I use the F2 footswitch, and have Scene 1 the X state and Scene 2 the Y state of the amp model. What you end up with is 3 footswitches to control the 4 channels.
 
@Bman of course it is OK to post my videos - They were made so as many people as possible could learn from them.

These days I have become lazy / I have gone old school. I have found that I can play most things with the JM45 set to edge of break-up. I get cleans by rolling back the volume, and I have a Tube Screamer and a Face Fuzz in front, and with these I can play anything within classic rock or pop. I still use a lot of presets with 'three-channel-amps' as shown in the video, but the JM45 with drive blocks in front is just soo freakin versatile.
 
I've found the audio gap when switching between x/y amp states to be quite noticeable. I discovered the control switches recently, and it's a much better choice for me. No dropout at all.
 
Thanks for all of the recommendations and the creative ideas of accomplishing the simulation of amp channel switching. I have some experimenting to do to find what will work best for me. I was envisioning having the ability to switch between the channels of an amplifier, like the 3 channels (modeled) of a dual rectifier, without any type of substantial delay. This is a capability that I think would be very valuable in a modellor: having the abiltity to mimick the channels and switching functionality of a specific amp.
 
Thanks for all of the recommendations and the creative ideas of accomplishing the simulation of amp channel switching. I have some experimenting to do to find what will work best for me. I was envisioning having the ability to switch between the channels of an amplifier, like the 3 channels (modeled) of a dual rectifier, without any type of substantial delay. This is a capability that I think would be very valuable in a modellor: having the abiltity to mimick the channels and switching functionality of a specific amp.

What you're asking for IS possible. However, there is what I consider some pretty advanced programming or tweaking required to set it up seamless. The 'advanced programming' I'm referring to is stuff like using Scene Controllers and Control Switches when building scenes. And it's not that it is all that advanced. You just have to have an understanding of the capabilities available.....and I'm not implying you don't. I recommend you run through the video and set up a Brit 34 or #800 amp like in the video first. Then apply the same process to the amp of your choice, or even use the amp of your choice instead of the amp in the video. The video is less than 20 minutes so you're built in 20 to 30 minutes.

Do note that Mesa's are notoriously fickle. I recommend starting with one of @2112's Mesa presets (search and you WILL find). He's got a glorious Mesa tone and has spent years sculpting his AX8/Fractal tone. You may find what you hear in his videos don't quite transfer to what you hear through your monitoring system. But you'll have a good starting point for an amp block and drive block. Then you can apply the concepts in the video to set your scenes up like a 3 channel amp...(you can actually set it up like an 8 channel amp if you think about it). There isn't 11 scenes though, so it doesn't go to 11.
 
Thanks for all of the recommendations and the creative ideas of accomplishing the simulation of amp channel switching. I have some experimenting to do to find what will work best for me. I was envisioning having the ability to switch between the channels of an amplifier, like the 3 channels (modeled) of a dual rectifier, without any type of substantial delay. This is a capability that I think would be very valuable in a modellor: having the abiltity to mimick the channels and switching functionality of a specific amp.

There are modelers that can gaplessly switch between amps just like an amp. Axe FX 2 and 3, Helix, Headrush, Amplifire can do this. But in my opinion (and I've tried them all), there's no floor model yet that can gaplessly switch and has the modeling quality of Fractal. So there's a trade off until they announce a new AX8 for me.
 
If all you're doing is changing the amp "channels", the AX8 is already more than capable of doing this without any more delay or gap than a physical amp. I used a Mesa for years and the AX8 is currently just as seamless when switching only the amp by using the x/y function or a control switch.

The thing that is being glossed over here is the fact that the gap or delay when switching scenes happens when changing the on/off and x/y states of effects in the preset. When switching presets, more than likely the amp model is being changed as well as some of the effect types or models from the previous preset. Need to keep some perspective here, the length of the gap is a mere fraction of the time it would take to physically make all of these changes on a traditional pedalboard.
 
If all you're doing is changing the amp "channels", the AX8 is already more than capable of doing this without any more delay or gap than a physical amp. I used a Mesa for years and the AX8 is currently just as seamless when switching only the amp by using the x/y function or a control switch.

The thing that is being glossed over here is the fact that the gap or delay when switching scenes happens when changing the on/off and x/y states of effects in the preset. When switching presets, more than likely the amp model is being changed as well as some of the effect types or models from the previous preset. Need to keep some perspective here, the length of the gap is a mere fraction of the time it would take to physically make all of these changes on a traditional pedalboard.

The problem is that in most cases you definitely want a different FX state between your clean and high gain scenes. I have an Amplifire unit (AA3) and it can switch all seamless between a Fender amp with Chorus, Delay and Reverb for cleans and a TS-boosted 5150 for high gain rhythm. AX8 simply can’t. I really miss that possibility from the Amplifire and is my only concern with AX8. Still, overall the AX8 has so many advantages over Amplifire it’s my current choice.
 
The problem is that in most cases you definitely want a different FX state between your clean and high gain scenes. I have an Amplifire unit (AA3) and it can switch all seamless between a Fender amp with Chorus, Delay and Reverb for cleans and a TS-boosted 5150 for high gain rhythm. AX8 simply can’t. I really miss that possibility from the Amplifire and is my only concern with AX8. Still, overall the AX8 has so many advantages over Amplifire it’s my current choice.

Without using having any experience with the Amplifire and based on your described experience I'd have to agree that there is a latent switch with the AX8 when switching from one amp with various effects to another amp with another set of effects. But you typically can set up most amps in a clean state using input trim and drive levels and using a scene controller to adjust those parameters to get to high gain. And THIS is how the latency is usually mitigated to an acceptable amount. This of course comes with the caveat that jumping from a Fender Twin, with a compressor and spring reverb to a 5153 with a tube screamer and delay on will be a little more noticeable. And there are some tricks you can do to hide the gap, such as having your reverb wash a bit to cover the switch. @Moke is really good at this type of stuff.

All that being said, I still use a clean scene with a Morgan AC and dirty scenes with a Marshall. I find myself fumbling more to switch to the right pickup at the same time as stomping the preset and it's pretty clumsy for me. And for that reason I always set up my main dirty rhythm scene so that I can clean up just by switching to my neck single coil and turning the volume down.

It's ironic because when I was young I started with a cheap Crate amp that had a clean and dirty channel with a foot switch. I'd stomp on the amp channel switch and a chorus pedal at the same time and switch to a neck pickup. Then I got an old NMV Marshall and figured out that turning down the volume knob cleaned it up. It actually took about 6 months for me to figure it out and found out a few years later that's how it's always been done...lol. So, I'm used to that for the last 30 years but always wishing to have one stomp to switch to another rig......and here it is now - my AX8. And I still NEED that clean up capability via the guitar volume because playing dynamically or playing the amp had become part of how I played.

We're in an awesome era to be guitarists. I have a cranked tone with studio effects playing at bedroom levels. Everything I wished for. The latency thing is a minor thing that I've always had to deal with so I'm unbothered and have learned some tricks of minimizing it. I've never had a professional pedal board that switched amps for me but I wonder if those have a tad bit latency when switching.
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Without using having any experience with the Amplifire and based on your described experience I'd have to agree that there is a latent switch with the AX8 when switching from one amp with various effects to another amp with another set of effects. But you typically can set up most amps in a clean state using input trim and drive levels and using a scene controller to adjust those parameters to get to high gain. And THIS is how the latency is usually mitigated to an acceptable amount. This of course comes with the caveat that jumping from a Fender Twin, with a compressor and spring reverb to a 5153 with a tube screamer and delay on will be a little more noticeable. And there are some tricks you can do to hide the gap, such as having your reverb wash a bit to cover the switch. @Moke is really good at this type of stuff.

All that being said, I still use a clean scene with a Morgan AC and dirty scenes with a Marshall. I find myself fumbling more to switch to the right pickup at the same time as stomping the preset and it's pretty clumsy for me. And for that reason I always set up my main dirty rhythm scene so that I can clean up just by switching to my neck single coil and turning the volume down.

It's ironic because when I was young I started with a cheap Crate amp that had a clean and dirty channel with a foot switch. I'd stomp on the amp channel switch and a chorus pedal at the same time and switch to a neck pickup. Then I got an old NMV Marshall and figured out that turning down the volume knob cleaned it up. It actually took about 6 months for me to figure it out and found out a few years later that's how it's always been done...lol. So, I'm used to that for the last 30 years but always wishing to have one stomp to switch to another rig......and here it is now - my AX8. And I still NEED that clean up capability via the guitar volume because playing dynamically or playing the amp had become part of how I played.

We're in an awesome era to be guitarists. I have a cranked tone with studio effects playing at bedroom levels. Everything I wished for. The latency thing is a minor thing that I've always had to deal with so I'm unbothered and have learned some tricks of minimizing it. I've never had a professional pedal board that switched amps for me but I wonder if those have a tad bit latency when switching.
.

Sure it can be done. But all those proven workarounds (cleaning up a high gain amp with scene controllers, using no amp block for cleans, using SDD/FET preamps for cleans etc.) are all compromises. How many would honestly go these routes if you had the option of switching seamless into a beautifully modelled clean amp (which are many in the AX8)? Luckily for me I don’t have many extensive clean parts, so I can live with the compromise on clean sound, if it was 50/50 I would need to consider Amplifire or another modeller, despite their shortcomings to AX8 in most other aspects.

And of course I do know AX8 is a compromise on form factor, price, you can’t have it all etc ... but you can always dream about it :)
 
Just after I posted I was playing and switched from a choruses out ambient clean amp scene to my main and the change was pretty blatant. It used to not be, but I’d recently added a compressor and changed the delay type and never noticed the drastic change but yeah....I could make that switch live. But it is going from two extremes.
 
The long and short of it is that if you want completely seamless scene changes, you should not use x/y switching at all.

I have 100+ song specific presets with no x/y switching and completely seamless scene changes. It requires a system, but it is definitely doable.

I think it is preferable to stay with the same amp and cab type at least for the entire song
 
I think it is preferable to stay with the same amp and cab type at least for the entire song

With the (current) capability of AX8, yes definitely. But would this be your preference even if the x/y amp switching was seamless or you used an AFXII/III? For some people I can imagine it is, but for people mostly switching between clean and high gain (and nothing in between) I think not.
 
When it is set up, it is just as easy to use as switching between two amp blocks. I don't think I would ever want to switch between two completely different amps anyway. When you do that you will have to do a fair bit of tweaking to get the two sounds to compliment each other.
 
When it is set up, it is just as easy to use as switching between two amp blocks. I don't think I would ever want to switch between two completely different amps anyway. When you do that you will have to do a fair bit of tweaking to get the two sounds to compliment each other.

Mbritt talked about this and his comments were interesting
He said although its fun for the player to switch from a Fender Twin to a plexi to a 5153 its actually very jarring to a listeners ears and confuses them
Its like having a web page in 3 colors
5 different fonts

So his though was to stay w one or 2 amps a song maybe a clean fender
The a fender w boost for the solo and try to avoid a drastic change in the type of amp

It makes sense to me actually
 
As an Axe Fx user, I've always had 2 Amp blocks at my disposal. I used to use both X and Y of both blocks to allow for clean, crunch and 2 variations of solo.

With X/Y switching you can most times accomplish making the change without hearing the gap just by the natural breaks in songs. But I had 1 particular song that needed instant change from clean to solo and I had to do that by changing amps.

Since then, I've realized that it sounds much more "organic" or "natural" to use the SAME amp and cab and use Drive blocks to get the different tones I'm after.
 
Mbritt talked about this and his comments were interesting
He said although its fun for the player to switch from a Fender Twin to a plexi to a 5153 its actually very jarring to a listeners ears and confuses them
Its like having a web page in 3 colors
5 different fonts

So his though was to stay w one or 2 amps a song maybe a clean fender
The a fender w boost for the solo and try to avoid a drastic change in the type of amp

It makes sense to me actually
Not to mention causing the sound engineer to glare at you!

My approach has been similar - Don't do anything that typically isn't done with physical amps. There's only a couple of players I'm aware of that use different amps live but they are typically the same type, ala Marshall, with different levels of gain.

A motto I've adopted is "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
 
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