Sustain without compression?

moosy1

Inspired
This topic has been covered a lot, but even after studying the manual and all the Forum threads, and tweaking every dial in Axe-Edit, I'm still not clear on one point: getting a long strong sustain just on occasional single notes.

I understand that compression squeezes the overall hi and lo volume, but this can kind of flatten out the whole sound. But I'm only interested in sustaining an occasional single note for as long as possible. (I understand that amp and gain volume etc helps get sustain, but i'm just focusing here on using the Axe). So for example if I use INFINITY ratio in Studio Comp to get a strong boost to keep a tone sustaining, it also limits the overall volume, even with the Makeup switch ON.

So how can I get a real strong sustain on occasional long notes, ie, boosting a decaying signal, without squeezing the overall volume with compression throughout the whole song?
 
No computer wizardry for this, altough the Freqout pedal tries to do this. Play loud and face the speaker when you want more sustain.
 
Thanks for feedback but I think I didn't state my problem/question correctly.

Axe-FX compressor (all comps) raise the decay floor but simultaneously lower the ceiling, so if I raise the floor threshold up to get max sustain, then I basically lower the ceiling and turn off the volume.

Question #1: can Axe Compressor have 2 "independent" thresholds: one for lowering ceiling and one for raising floor?

Or, approaching it another way:
True sustain comes from vibrating strings feeding back thru (loud) amp and re-vibrating the strings in a feedback loop (I saw Santana walking the stage in a sound check holding 1 note and looking for the sweet spot on the stage for max feedback/sustain then marking the spot with tape).

Question #2: So instead of Compressor, is there a way to design an Axe-FX block that sets up a looper to keep a note or chord sustaining digitally? My Yamaha Clavinova keyboard has a simple pedal that gives long sustain with no effect on tone, even at very low volumes. (Also has a built-in volume swell). Can that same digital sustain technology be built into Axe, with a simple foot switch or pedal to turn it on and off?

I've got an E-bow and a PedalPlus and they've both got +s and -s, but I'm looking for a block inside Axe-Fx that digitally creates that feedback/sustain loop, like the Yahama keyboard pedal.

Lots of folks here with expertise in electronics and digital design; are either of my suggestions (2 independent thresholds in Comp; digital feedback/sustain looping) possible?

thanks
 
Thanks for feedback but I think I didn't state my problem/question correctly.

Axe-FX compressor (all comps) raise the decay floor but simultaneously lower the ceiling, so if I raise the floor threshold up to get max sustain, then I basically lower the ceiling and turn off the volume.

Question #1: can Axe Compressor have 2 "independent" thresholds: one for lowering ceiling and one for raising floor?

Or, approaching it another way:
True sustain comes from vibrating strings feeding back thru (loud) amp and re-vibrating the strings in a feedback loop (I saw Santana walking the stage in a sound check holding 1 note and looking for the sweet spot on the stage for max feedback/sustain then marking the spot with tape).

Question #2: So instead of Compressor, is there a way to design an Axe-FX block that sets up a looper to keep a note or chord sustaining digitally? My Yamaha Clavinova keyboard has a simple pedal that gives long sustain with no effect on tone, even at very low volumes. (Also has a built-in volume swell). Can that same digital sustain technology be built into Axe, with a simple foot switch or pedal to turn it on and off?

I've got an E-bow and a PedalPlus and they've both got +s and -s, but I'm looking for a block inside Axe-Fx that digitally creates that feedback/sustain loop, like the Yahama keyboard pedal.

Lots of folks here with expertise in electronics and digital design; are either of my suggestions (2 independent thresholds in Comp; digital feedback/sustain looping) possible?

thanks
a piano keyboard is designed with a sustain pedal in mind like a real piano lifting the hammers off the strings. that's integral to a piano function.

a guitar doesn't have this because you just hold the strings yourself as long as you want them to ring.

to have a digital processor "hold" a note, it has to loop the audio. it can't "sustain" like a piano pedal because it doesn't know what rate to decay or not decay, and the audio isn't part of the "modeling" that a digital piano does where sustained notes are completely inherent to the instrument.

there is a guitar pedal called the Gamechanger: https://www.gamechangeraudio.com/pluspedal/

it was made specifically to give this sort of function to guitar. i'd suggest getting this pedal if it's an important desire because it's the best device (and only?) that does it. a processor can't just know to "sustain" something, because that's a very specific instruction.

at some point the processor has to determine when to start sustaining, when to stop listening, how long to hold it, how long to fade it out, etc. it doesn't seem that trivial.
 
thanks Chris; I tried the Gamechanger PedalPlus and it does exactly what you say (plus a lot more) but the tone it "holds" is a very dry flat sound with no body or resonance, and it's also very expensive. Getting a lot of feedback/sustain is important to me so I'll also explore some of the built-in guitar systems like Fernandes or Sustainiac. Just a personal quest for a certain tone. I caught some of it in a recent Recording post The Prayer, but used an E-Bow on a 2nd track to "hold" those long notes.
 
thanks Chris; I tried the Gamechanger PedalPlus and it does exactly what you say (plus a lot more) but the tone it "holds" is a very dry flat sound with no body or resonance, and it's also very expensive. Getting a lot of feedback/sustain is important to me so I'll also explore some of the built-in guitar systems like Fernandes or Sustainiac. Just a personal quest for a certain tone. I caught some of it in a recent Recording post The Prayer, but used an E-Bow on a 2nd track to "hold" those long notes.
yeah that's the problem with trying to sustain guitar - it's just audio and frequencies that a pedal is trying to "guess" how to sustain. it's flat and dry because it can't simulate the strings fading away slowly. again, a piano does this naturally, and digital pianos model the entire creation of the sound, so it can have sustaining notes be part of that creation. a guitar being sustained digitally sounds unnatural because it is.

when you say getting feedback/sustain is important, how would you use that sustain? are you wanting to have something hold so you can play over it? or are you just trying to hold a chord (and not change notes) for a long time? any audio examples?

the Ebow works because it's mechanically making the string produce a sound, which is more natural sounding. very different than trying to sustain after the note has been played.
 
"when you say getting feedback/sustain is important, how would you use that sustain? are you wanting to have something hold so you can play over it? or are you just trying to hold a chord (and not change notes) for a long time? any audio examples?"

I posted The Prayer (in FX II Recordings) as an example of trying use sustain for more and longer dramatic effect on those long notes that tend to decay too quickly. You can hear the E-Bow sustain after I lift my finger on some notes.
 
I used to struggle a lot with that same issue, and found I couldn't get enough sustain out of my Axe-fx setup. Then I found two things that help a lot. 1-) Play very loud, which doesn't really help in most situations... And 2-) use the mix knob in the compressor block, which let's your uncompressed tone through for enough attack and volume, and also let's through the compressed tone for long sustain. Start at a 50% mix and you will immediately see the effect. Then experiment with different mix levels to suit your needs.

In my case, this trick alone has solved the problem.
 
+1 ^
Let some uncompressed signal through.

The freeze pedal also does this. You should be able to similarly configure a delay block with the switch working as a HOLD.
 
yes, that "Repeat Hold" switch in Delay definitely extended the sustain; thank you for that suggestion
And turning down the Compression mix also helped.
 
Maybe when you get those parameters tweaked, set up a momentary switch on your pedal board to kick both those effects in, plus maybe some additional overdrive, for only as long as you step on it. I have that on a few of my patches and used sparingly it works quite well for dramatic sustained notes in a lead.
 
Sustainiac pickup.

Susatainiac looks promising, but rather than buy external hardware, first i'd like to get good sustain using the Axe-fx with my current gear.
The suggestions above have all improved the sustain from within Axe. Turning down the mix and using the Hold in Delay have dramatically improved my sustain. Thanks.
 
Your guitar has to let the string ring for sustain like this.
Agreed Chris. OP, I had luthier do a profile of my frets. His method allows the Strat to "bloom". So many players don't realize their factory made neck is just a good start, most new guitars need to be "tuned" to be the best they can be. I never realized how compromised my instruments were, until a master luthier showed me. He also did my LP as well. If the guitar is compromised, you'll be fighting a losing battle. Special pickups, gadgets, and effects can't give you something that is NOT there in the 1st place.
I have found in my own experience, the guitar HAS to be in the near field of the cab, and at an appreciable level to get real, true sustain. I use compression as the 1st BLOCK as well. I tried the numerous FRFR routes, (RCF, Seismic, JBL powered wedges) the top end would always squeal, and was not manageable in the near field. I was looking for sustain..NOT feedback. I went to a 212 cab, and power amp..CAB block is OFF. I play a much cleaner guitar, less distortion now than ever before. (40+ years). Not saying FRFR is a bad thing, lots of guy's doing it very well, and satisfied, just wasn't working for me in a live play situation. My instruments sing now, and I recommend, look at those first, and then try to play in the NF with the cab facing you as close as possible. Also keep your mids, and bottom end up.
Added: The luthier started by holding the guitar up by the peg head, striking the back of the neck with his palm heel, to see if the guitar would resonate like a marimba. (He explained why the neck is the most important element of the guitar) He say's if you don't have good wood, to begin with, it will never sustain properly. Also, mechanical coupling of the neck/body joint. I played his guitar that is pictured below, I did not know (in 40+ years) what a guitar REALLY is supposed to do! The guitar is in tune, all the way to the last fret! Probably sounds like a bunch of BS to some, or cork sniffing foolery, it's not. He buys custom shop necks / bodies for big bux, does his thing. His guitars are freaking phenomenal.
1579271992348.png
Photo of him and a few of his guitars on stage. (he's playing the harp with the relic strat on) He has many more, all of them are masters guitars..VERY expensive pieces. He is an old fart like me, but plays a guitar VERY well. His daddy taught him luthier skills a long time ago.
 
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I'm only interested in sustaining an occasional single note for as long as possible

How about using an expression pedal to control compression? You might need to change ratio and level at the same time, but with a little experimentation, I bet this would be really cool. Heel down? No compression whatsoever. Toe down? Sustainer mode!
 
How about using an expression pedal to control compression? You might need to change ratio and level at the same time, but with a little experimentation, I bet this would be really cool. Heel down? No compression whatsoever. Toe down? Sustainer mode!

Aww, man, cannot do on an a FX II :(. Was looking forward to checking this out.

Oooh, gonna tray Output Comp in the Amp Block(?) 🤔
 
experimenting a lot, different amps respond differently with same home monitor volume level; best thing i found was the Repeat Hold toggle in Delay, but it dampens the delay so I set up an identical delay in front of it with the Hold ON and the second OFF so I get great sustain from the first and full Delay effect from the second. Works really well with CA Triptik Modern and many more. Not playing live, just home computer, so this works for me. Also turning down Comp mix to 50%. Thanks to all who made suggestions. My sustain is definitely improving. I'll post an example.
 
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