Super Mini Amp Fest... Axe-fx II

mortega76

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
Super Mini Amp Fest... Axe-fx II (Need Advise)

Super Mini Amp Fest...

I've had the pleasure of being able to test run some of the better amps at my buddy Matt's house (in the past, Diezel, CCV, etc...)... I'll keep it short...

Amps in attendance... and in order of what we played when I arrived... all running through two Mills cabs (loaded with Scumbacks) with a red foot switch of some sort to allow for two setups to be A/B'd or played at the same time.

Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier 2010 150 watt: It sounded freaking MASSIVE... All three channels sounded really good... the clean was up to par with some of the Axe-fx II's cleans that I really like... Channel two was probably my favorite, it had everything... MASSIVE lows that you feel in your gut... mids... and highs with the presence "sizzle"... Channel three was just a bit more over the top, it sounded really good but I preferred the "cleaner" channel 2.

VHT Valvulator GP3 with Fryette 2/90/2: This setup sounded like it had a blanket over it... after tweaking it a bit (and taking off the smiley face EQ) it sounded decent... but it was missing just about everything that the Mesa had...

Axe-fx II with Carvin F1200: First we connected it with the 2/90/2 with my distortion patch that I currently use and power amp sims off... well, it was very dark and muddy... I really didn't like the way it sounded and I'm not as familiar with how it sounds so I just disconnected it and proceeded to connect the Carvin F1200... turned on power amp sims (with cab sims off). I started with my FAS Modern patch and quickly heard how it was nowhere in the vicinity of "awesomeness" that the Mesa had... without tweaking it I changed the amp sim to New Recto Red (Figured this might be the closest thing to the Triple Rectifier 2010 model)... well, no amount of tweaking got me to the sound that was coming out of the real Recto... there was this low end girth, rumble and high end presence sizzle that my setup was definitely lacking. I proceeded to change it to the Recto Red and got much closer... but no amount of tweaking gave me that low end "chaotic" low end rumble that filled the room and kicked us in the gut or that high end presence sizzle... I will say that I did get close but you could definitely hear and feel a difference.

Peavey 5150 III (or 5153) with matching 5153 cab: This sounded decent... lacked lows and highs... it was mostly mids... when paired with the Mesa it actually sounded like a pretty good combination... I really didn't like it.

Splawn Quickrod (I think... Matt's had that one a while and we've heard it before but I got there two hours late so I didn't get to hear it this time around).

All in all, the Mesa killed it today... and my buddy Paul is debating on buying from the guy that is letting him test it out...

Any thoughts on how I can get that "chaotic" sound and sizzle out of the Axe-fx... it sounds like if things are going to fall apart but... it's like an organized chaos... We did have all the amps VERY loud... the Mesa was maxed for a bit, but most of the time we were set between noon and 3 o'clock. At low volumes the Mesa didn't sound as good but it did sound better when we switched from Modern to Vintage and set it on 50 watt mode... but I definitely preferred to have it louder... My ears were definitely hurting after this session... and I know if I did get a Mesa I wouldn't run it (or better yet, won't be allowed to run it) at the volumes that we were running today at practice or at the venues...

P.S. Please don't respond with comments like "Maybe the Axe-fx II isn't for you..." etc.. I am very happy with the cleans of the Axe-fx II it's just teh br00tlz that I'm trying to get better results...

P.S.S. I saved the patch where I got close with the Recto Red and I will try to upload the patch tomorrow... thanks again for any advise!

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Edit: I've attached my distortion patch which is really my template patch for my 4 go to patches... all I do is turn things off and on... I originally thought it was the Recto New Red but it was the Recto New Orange. If someone could help me out I would definitely appreciate it...

The X amp is my jam room FAS Modern amp sim and the Y amp is the Recto New Orange to get it as close to the real deal as possible... keep in mind that this was run with cab sims off and via the Carvin F1200 into two 4x12 cabs. http://forum.fractalaudio.com/attac...per-mini-amp-fest-axe-fx-ii-05-distortion.syx
 
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mortega76 said:
P.S. Please don't respond with comments like "Maybe the Axe-fx II isn't for you..." etc.. I am very happy with the cleans of the Axe-fx II it's just teh br00tlz that I'm trying to get better results...
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Its a real shame that one has to include a line like this to try to ward off attacks.
 
Chris Hurley said:
Its a real shame that one has to include a line like this to try to ward off attacks.
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They are not attacks unless someone takes them that way.

Sometimes it is nothing more than genuine advice.


You should video one of these get togethers so we can all here some of the amps and Ax on show! :)
 
does this still apply in AxeII and with a Triple Rectifier?

"Cliff: "None of the Recto models in the Axe-Fx have the post tone-stack bass boost. If you want to replicate the behavior of a Single Rectifier you need to put an 11 dB bass boost after the preamp model. The Axe-Fx models are based on the Dual Rectifier modes with the bass boost switch off. Single Rectifiers engage the bass boost switch automatically in channel 2"

"To mimick the bass boost, use a PEQ or low shelf Filter after the Amp block to boost bass by 11 dB at around 120Hz." from WIKI

sometimes the secret ingredient to a tone (often described as 'something' or 'it') is just a simple boost or cut in the right place. I've noticed this often in dirt pedals. The most common difference between a decent, good sounding and a glorified boutique dirt box is just a much better tailored EQ of the more expensive one.

just a few days ago I found 'my' bassman tone by pairing it up with a 4x12 Redwirez IR and adding 6dB @ 1.1kHz post cab

​
 
Thanks for chiming in fellas...

symphx: I will definitely give that amp sim a try...

DP: Who is that character on your avatar... I love how you alternate the pic... he reminds me a bit of the Marvel character "The Ghost"

Chris Hurley: Hey Chris... did you used to live in San Antonio in the late 90's early 00's? I could have sworn your name is the same as a tech I used to work with at CompUSA.

mark_melling: The only video I usually have around is my iPhone 3Gs and that thing takes crappy video... The iPhone 4 on the other hand takes much better video... I'm holding out for the iPhone 5 before I commit myself to another 2 year contract...

ghost-iron-man.jpg


I don't know if the low end boost trick is needed or not but it definitely had "low end"... just not the same type that was spewing out of the Mesa.
 
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I remember you doing this exact same thing with the Axe 1 (doing a brootz "shoot out" followed by much complaining and unhappiness afterwards). Seriously, if you want one of these Brootz amps you should buy one. It's not like they are out of the range for someone who can afford an Axe... It's almost certainly a way more cost effective solution than an Axe FRFR setup if you are a primarily into one genre, in fact. You can get really good cleans on a lot of Brootz amps. A lot of the Mesas have stellar clean channels for example.

Not an "attack" good advice, IMHO.

A 6505 is an awesome brootz amp and can be picked up for <$1K brand new much less used, I see a Triple Rec on eBay right now for $950 using buy it now, if that is your grail. That leaves like $1650 to fill out a rig if you can sell the Axe2 @ $2600. Not to mention all the other FRFR stuff you could unload. You could build a real Brootz dream rig and stop doing "shoot outs" to convince yourself you have a decent rig and start making tuneage.

IDK. That's just IMHO.
 
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zenaxe said:
I remember you doing this exact same thing with the Axe 1 (doing a brootz "shoot out" followed by much complaining and unhappiness afterwards). Seriously, if you want one of these Brootz amps you should buy one. It's not like they are out of the range for someone who can afford an Axe... It's almost certainly a way more cost effective solution than an Axe FRFR setup if you are a primarily into one genre, in fact. You can get really good cleans on a lot of Brootz amps. A lot of the Mesas have stellar clean channels for example.

Not an "attack" good advice, IMHO.

A 6505 is an awesome brootz amp and can be picked up for <$1K brand new much less used, I see a Triple Rec on eBay right now for $950 using buy it now, if that is your grail. That leaves like $1650 to fill out a rig if you can sell the Axe2 @ $2600. Not to mention all the other FRFR stuff you could unload. You could build a real Brootz dream rig and stop doing "shoot outs" to convince yourself you have a decent rig and start making tuneage.

IDK. That's just IMHO.
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Thanks for your advise... but I'm not using FRFR... never have... this shootout was done on the same Mills cabs so as to try to have a decent A/B environment where the only thing that "changes" is the amp setup in question... the only other cab that was used was the 5153 but that was only used with the 5153.

I will admit that I am "addicted" to what the Axe-fx (Ultra and now the II) has to offer... and I really don't want to go down the "tube road" and all that goes with it (humidity, heat, changing tubes, etc...) again... never have and hopefully never will. You are correct in that I've written similar "reviews" in the past but this time around it was going in with the following information from the http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii/35997-axe-fx-ii-technical-questions-thread-2.html#post490186.

dupere11497 said:
Simple one! How would you compare the realism of the amp sims of the ultra vs. Axe 2. Let's say Ultra was like 85% there, is the Axe 2 that much different, do we compare a Ford to a Rolls Royce here? Thanks!
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FractalAudio said:
100%. Seriously.
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So it would not be "unfair" to ask for assistance in achieving the desired tone... especially when it's from an amp sim that is similar to the one in the Axe-fx.
 
Hey Mo,

I think it's very difficult to help without any sort of reference clips.
What cab was used? Same cab used for axe-fx and the real amp? Did you match the levels?

Edit: I should read more carefully...hehehe...you already said which cab was used and it was the same for axe-fx and amp.
 
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AlbertA said:
Hey Mo,

I think it's very difficult to help without any sort of reference clips.
What cab was used? Same cab used for axe-fx and the real amp? Did you match the levels?

Edit: I should read more carefully...hehehe...you already said which cab was used and it was the same for axe-fx and amp.
Click to expand...

I agree that it will be very difficult to get any kind of assistance without reference clips... I'm hoping to upload the patch later on tonight and maybe someone can take a quick gander and see if I missed something to achieve the "described" tone... As I said, all I had was an iPhone 3Gs that has horrible video capabilities... the audio clips very quickly on the 3Gs and distorts the audio. I need to get me one of those stereo mic recorders for instances like this... anyhow I think my buddy Paul said he was returning the amp to the guy today so I doubt I'll be able to get clips unless I "borrow" that amp and take it to the jam room...
 
I would specify the settings used on the Triple Recto; RAW-modern or vintage, presence, master gain, bass, mid, treble positions, etc, what rectifier mode (tube, diodes), what power setting (spongy, bold)

From what I read, the Triple recto should be identical to the double recto except its rated for higher power.

Recto New Orange should be the closest match to Channel 2 of the Triple recto. But we'll need Cliff to chime in into what mode settings were used for the model.
 
I have no experience with the Axe II, but I've always had this issue with my Ultra. My solution is to use tubes in the Ultra's FX Loop. No amount of the Ultra's digital EQ could match the tube's warm bottom and sweet top.

I tested the same way in part, through the same power amp/guitar cab with the Cab Blocks off (as well as amp FR Cab Blocks on, amp FRFR Cab Blocks on), with the Ultra's Amp Blocks time/phase aligned with the custom tube amps within the FX Loop which allows instant A/B switching. In terms of the "in the room" cab sound the Ultra's amp models couldn't match the tube's phat top and bottom. I wasn't testing hi-gain though, rather edge of breakup thru pushed medium gain sounds (vintage Vox, Marshall, Matchless, Orange, and Fender type sounds).

no amount of tweaking got me to the sound that was coming out of the real Recto... there was this low end girth, rumble and high end presence sizzle that my setup was definitely lacking
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Thanks for the response fellas... What did you put in the FX Loop to help your tone? I really don't want to have to use tubes... but if I have too... damn.

I've attached my distortion patch which is really my template patch for my 4 go to patches... all I do is turn things off and on... I originally thought it was the Recto New Red but it was the Recto New Orange. If someone could help me out I would definitely appreciate it...

The X amp is my jam room FAS Modern amp sim and the Y amp is the Recto New Orange to get it as close to the real deal as possible... keep in mind that this was run with cab sims off and via the Carvin F1200 into two 4x12 cabs.
 

Attachments

  • 05 Distortion.syx
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I'm using custom Randall/Egnater MTS tube preamp modules and a custom low-power tube amp primarily for my guitar tones (used with the Axe via 4CM, so the Axe provides pre and post FX to the modules), though I'll often use an Amp Block in addition as well. My custom RM2 can support two tube modules, and can mix them in parallel or switch between them, so up to four amp heads at a time in 4U weighing in at 30lbs total. That's 2 MTS tube modules and 2 Amp Blocks, though with my extensive FX load I rarely use more than one Amp Block with the two MTS Modules (the Axe II will help with it's additional CPU whenever I get one).

In order to time align them I have to delay the Amp Block(s) to match up with the tube preamp modules due to the extra D/A - A/D conversion, 0.317ms in my case (via a Flanger Block, which can also swap phase if need be).

Any tube preamp could work though, try one you like? I've also tried warming up the Amp Blocks via a recording tube preamp in the FX Loop post Amp Block and it helped considerably, though ultimately it wasn't as good as the tube MTS guitar preamps.

mortega76 said:
Thanks for the response fellas... What did you put in the FX Loop to help your tone? I really don't want to have to use tubes... but if I have too... damn.

I've attached my distortion patch which is really my template patch for my 4 go to patches... all I do is turn things off and on... I originally thought it was the Recto New Red but it was the Recto New Orange. If someone could help me out I would definitely appreciate it...

The X amp is my jam room FAS Modern amp sim and the Y amp is the Recto New Orange to get it as close to the real deal as possible... keep in mind that this was run with cab sims off and via the Carvin F1200 into two 4x12 cabs.
Click to expand...
 
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DJD100 said:
I'm using custom Randall/Egnater MTS tube preamp modules and a custom low-power tube amp primarily for my guitar tones, though I'll often use an Amp Block in addition as well. My custom 2U RM2 can support two tube modules, and can mix them in parallel or switch between them, so up to four amp heads at a time (2 MTS and 2 Amp Blocks, though with my FX load I rarely use more than one Amp Block with the two MTS Modules).

In order to time align them I have to delay the Amp Block(s) to match up with the tube models due to the extra D/A - A/D conversion, 0.317ms in my case.

Any tube preamp could work though, try one you like?
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Damn! Sounds expensive... hahahahaha
 
Not really...

It also includes a 50W power amp and takes the place of a four head amp rig, all in 4U @ 30lbs (including some real tube tones), and has all the flexibility of the Axe in that it can drive guitar cabs and/or FR/FRFR speakers, and/or be Di'd etc. If you factor in the cost of a four head rig, plus it's weight and cartage costs, then this little rig starts to look like a real bargain IMO. I think they're a marriage made in Heaven (the Axe FX and Randall/Egnater Modular Tube System guitar preamps).

There's a pic of it here...

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/lounge/15985-post-your-rig-34.html

Ultimately I'll get an Axe II for it, but I'll wait until the fever dies down as the Ultra does everything I need at the moment.


mortega76 said:
Damn! Sounds expensive... hahahahaha
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You said you are happy with the cleans now. How do you think they compare to the Ultra? I like the medium and high gain of my Ultra, but always thought the cleans needed just a little something extra?
 
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