Sub woofer with Fractomic necessary?

M

MichiganboySB

Inspired
If I'm after this Meshuggah-Panterish-buckethead type crunch...but want my body's cavity to reverberate while rocking out, should I consider an ISP sub woofer to assist the fractomic? Or do the fractomics push enough air as is?
thanks in advance always,
Ken
 
I wasn't talking about the thread. I was talking about Too_Much_Power's reply. "Thread" was used in reference to a "Best of 09" 'Thread' separate from this one.
 
MichiganboySB, a few years ago I got a chance to play through a Rivera Knucklehead combined with their 'Los Lobottom' extension cab. I also used to rig up a setup at my house when I played through both my JCM 800 and Eden 4x10 combo at the same time (with the JCM stacked on top to blow heads off). I have never tried the ISP solution, but in both setups I did try the results were similar: it sounded unbelievably awesome when I was playing by myself, but less than impressive when playing with other musicians.

Here's the thing-- I'm also a bass player and I have a 7-string bass (the F# string could choke a rhino). If I really want to I can get super low. But at some point, you'll find you're just competing for the same sonic space if you run your guitar through a sub. And when you compete, you lose note definition and the whole thing can turn to sludge. I'm not saying it can't be done--- Korn were (I believe) one of the first bands to run their guitars through bass extension cabs. But I have come around to thinking that guitars do better in the mid-range. And for that, an amp like the Fractomic will do the trick. Just my 2 cents.
 
PlaysARobin said:
I wasn't talking about the thread. I was talking about Too_Much_Power's reply. "Thread" was used in reference to a "Best of 09" 'Thread' separate from this one.
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I gotcha alcaldwell, I don't have a live bassist to contend with but do intend to jam along with backing tracks played through some other speakers. When widrace (forum member...the best) was here he suggested I see what ISP has to offer to provide those low frenquencies. Maybe the fractomic will be satisfactory in the lows and I won't even need it I don't know. Just hate how thin my sound is right now. ttyl,
Ken
 
i don't know how it would sound with the fractal amp (if that's what you're actually asking)

...but i gotta say, i have the ISP vectorSL running it live with a mesa 4x12 with the band, and there's no way i could play without it! (i did, when i didn't feel like lugging the thing around to small gigs...but it never sounded right). playing next to the other guitarist without one made his tone sound, well...never as good, we'll just say. and the drummer/ bassist would usually make a comment about the "thin" tone when i wasn't there for a practice (even tho he did have a good setup mesa thru a 4x12 marshall).

though this is just a personal preference.

but this really depends on the tone/ music you play...i really don't see it working well unless you're playing 7+ strings for that tight low bottom. --but i could be wrong.

i've been hoping for someone with a good recording setup (something i don't have/ have good access to) to make a good set of IRs with a vector SL and some cabs. but to be honest, i'm not sure if it'll work in the IR world or not...but would LOVE to try it. ;) i just think back to when the pod was "the" tone everyone wanted...most used the bigBottom in their patches when it came out--the randall cab you mentioned. and it really made the tone shine (for "that type" of sound that is).

i have been messing around lately with using clawfinger's krank porthole IR [thanx clawfinger!] to "mimic" the sub with redwirez orange cab IR i'm using as my "default." from the amp i split the signal into 2 different pEqs/ filters, one loPass and one hiPass at 130 then each into the specific hiRez cab block. then both of those blocks into a mixer so i can dial in the cabs quickly. it's not the same tone/ sound as the sub live, but it's working out as a way to add in some of that "feel" for direct recording.

...i'm not sure that you'd get any benefit using a sub with the fractal amp as that is supposed to be a flat response and as a stand alone, really what you should be hearing in the first place...i think the sub works best with a big guitar cab (imo).

so: no...not necessary. ;) but i love mine--with my 4x12.
 
EDIT: here's the ISP Vecor SL which is the unit I own http://www.isptechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&Itemid=73

I have an ISP Vector sub and used to use it in my old band, butttttttt we had no bass player lol. I think the problem with the subs are people over compensate setting their level because they want to hear them stand out. With my setup i just dialed it in enough that if it wasn't there you'd miss it but you weren't getting that thump like a crappy kid driving down your street Kicker pumping sound. The other thing with the ISP solution is you have to run your speaker out into it. It isn't designed to receive a line level signal it's meant for a full powered speaker out. It's made to sit between a head and another cab. And this is where another issue comes in. There is a crossover circuit, I forget at what frequency, and what will happen is the ISP sub will take a portion of the lows then send the mids and highs to the normal cab. That's great if you MIC both the sub and the cab, otherwise a part of the output signal isn't going to be picked up. Now that can be a good or bad thing but that's debatable. Also be sure to check the crossover frequency chances are if you are playing in standard tuning not much is going to be picked up by the ISP sub. My band played in drop C and seemed to work pretty well for me.
 
rsf1977 said:
I think the problem with the subs are people over compensate setting their level because they want to hear them stand out. With my setup i just dialed it in enough that if it wasn't there you'd miss it but you weren't getting that thump like a crappy kid driving down your street Kicker pumping sound..
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like rsf states...it can be a touchy thing, i only have my sub for the "sweetening" of the thump, it's actually pretty low volume-level wise, and i think dialed in at like 2ish?. one always has to remember that the guitar *isn't* the bass (if you have a bass in the band ;p and each needs to have it's own spot in the freq range. (we play 7 strings as well and chug a lot on the b)

for me, i prefer that kind of 5150 tone--a bit more highMid ranged (tho it's weird as i just don't like to play peaveys personally (tho that mod'ed 5150 that someone posted on these forums sounded really nice!)...but i gravitate toward the recorded tones of bands that use them !? and the sub (dialed in subtly enough) has really helped beef up the tone for me, because just adding more "bass or deep" via the amp dials flubs the tone to me.

but again...just personal preference.
 
MichiganboySB just plain wants his chest cavity to resonate. According to some medical study of 23 volunteers, this resonant frequency ranges from 18-34 Hz.

He has been patiently waiting for the Atomic FR to arrive, hoping that it will do. I'm willing to bet a beer it won't happen with a couple 12" speakers - not for long anyway.

Perhaps the best way to help the guy is to conjure up a controlled method to drive a sub with his Ultra. It could be an Isp or a just a good old 18" 2242H JBL - whatever.

I was thinking that a x-over block followed by a FX out would do. Lots of ways to skin the cat here. Ideas?

What's Jay thinkin?
 
You guys are awesome, I sincerely appreciate your input into this. It's late right now with sooo much to respond to but that ISP steve lukathur was the sub I was interested in. And it appears that I'm heading into the 7 string area with this hobby... is that what you play mePT? If so, out of curiousity what kind? Steve you ever record bands that tune this low?
To try and clarify what I'm after here is this guy with a baritone guitar tuned in B I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULhz423h_nI
I kinda want to be this guy but without the chipped teeth :) No, but I kinda see that it won't be necessary for a sub if the Fractomics pan out.
Ttyl and thanks again for helping me out... I'll let you know what I think of the fractomics next month I guess (congrats to tom and his new wife).
Ken
 
MichiganboySB said:
Steve you ever record bands that tune this low?
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Yeah, it's a good test of your room, mics, console, power amps and monitors, mixing skills and patience though. I make sure the bass dude and the guitar guy are away until a reasonable mix is established. Nothing worse than hearing the "I can't hear myself' every time you concentrate on the other guys stuff. Disassembling the train wreck doesn't happen quickly either.

An experiment that folks should try is to place the cabs/sub in the position where you ideally wish to be in the room. Play away as you move around the room. Height matters too, and so does the key your playing in. Mark the spot that your ears like best and move the cab there. Now go play where the cab was. Do this again starting from a different place in the room until you have found the best overall result. For a particular frequency, there are bad spots all over the room and neither you, nor the cab want to be in a 'null' area of a particular freq if you wish to hear it. Simply put, a null is an area of lower volume compared to a 'peak'. If both are in a peak things will be real loud at that freq. You’re simply working the modal nulls and peaks of the room. A typical untreated small room could have 30db or more variation as you move around. Good rooms have way less variation.

To hear precisely what's going on, drive the cab with a sine wave - something like 1k or whatever. Walk around the room and see what happens. You will notice a pattern of 'now I hear it, now I don't. Amazing huh? Check it at different elevations too. Do it again at a different frequency and see what happens. The 'now I hear it, now I don't’ spots have moved. You will find that the relationship between the sound source position and your ears location in the room is an acoustically huge variable. Smaller rooms - more variables, good rooms - less variables. Work the room ya got, particularly with a sub. The sub may not want to be alongside the cabs either.

To give the Fratomic FR a fair chance at LF put it in a corner of the room and run a sine wave though it at the fundamental frequency of the lowest key you play in. It need not be loud. As an example, for drop D listen at 36.7 and 73.4 Hz. Take a SPL meter and find the spots in the room where the SPL is loudest at the particular freq of interest. That's where you stand. Don't move too far, it may disappear. Now you can move the cab to any location where the SPL was relatively high. You need to stand in one of those spots too. If your ears are good you won't need the meter. If you can get your hands on a keyboard you could nix the sine wave generator.

If the LF is not enough for you it's time for a sub.
 
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