Studio Monitor Issue

[shasha]

In another thread I detail my move from the $300 range of monitors to the $900 range. There was a big difference for me. That said, the HS80m that I started out with can likey be had for a couple hundred dollars on sale or used. It was a truly fantastic monitor and you should hear no blanket over the axe with it. I don't think you need to break the bank with the monitors you buy, however, you don't want to buy a Mercedes AMG and put the absolute cheapest gas in it. You likely should bump up your monitors just a bit.

I'm a fan of the HS80M's and an owner of them. Yes you can get them for about half price if you are patient and lucky with price matching (Music123 is great for me). I A/B'd a bunch of monitors and they were the ones that enabled me to pick out every instrument in the mix. It may just be me, but the seperation between instruments along with a relatively flat response was really important for me. Everything else I listened to after them sounded either boomy, boxy, muddy or crappy. Everything. And I was set to drop some coin.

But they aren't very pleasant to listen to for music if I was to be 100% honest. They don't sound bad at all if you've got a pristine source feeding them. But I can't listen to about half my MP3 colletion through them because every single imperfection stands out. They are absolutely some of the most unforgiving monitors I've ever used. When its good they're great, when it's bad you'll know it really fast. I think that is the point of a good monitor. For listening to music for enjoyment its love/hate for me a lot of times. Luckily I've got a good set of cans and use them most of the time so its not that big a deal.

 

[Speculum Speculorum]

Someone has already mentioned this, but the room is going to have a massive effect on the way you perceive sound in your environment. I have a pair of Adam A7s in my studio room in my apartment and I am getting sick tones out of the Axe-fx II. My ceilings are 9 feet high. I sat down and figured out where my speakers should sit in reference to the dimensions of my space. They're on stands with the tweeters at ear-height, and I calculated where my sweet-spot is for mixing, which is the most neutral area in my room. I have a book shelf in one of my back corners and a reflection panel directly behind me (an unfolded primacoustic flexibooth used for vocals which works great for absorbing the high end echo in my room which was the most bugging thing). I could use some bass traps to help increase low-end clarity in my room and probably a few more reflection panels.

However, Red Seas Fire mixed the most of their first EP on ADAM A7s, and Nolly had no treatment in his environment whatsoever even when he moved up to the S3X-V's that he now uses. The only thing I feel like I really need, considering my environment, is probably a sub so that I can hear the lowest of lows in my mixes without having to reference them through my ATH-M50 headphones. I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing now.

It would be great if we could all have the highest-end monitoring systems available, but it's kind of useless advice to tell a guy that he needs to spend $3,000+ to get good sound out of his axe-fx. You should spend, however, the most that you possibly can, and stretch the budget the most when it comes to your monitoring system. I've heard great mixes out of KRK's and Genelecs alike, but the better your monitors and sound environment, the better your chances at getting the tonal balance right.

 

[DHardmanJr]

FWIW: I run the Axe FX II through a set of Alesis M1 Active Mk2 speakers (not exactly the same ones as the OP) in my "home studio" (aka spare bedroom) and it sounds great. And in terms of listening with over the ear head phones or IEMs or through a monitor wedge of the PA or FOH in a live setup ... they all sound very similar to me. There are slight differences of course but the general character of the sound is the same - definitely not a blanket over the speaker effect at all or any stark contrast with them. For me, that's one of the best things about running FRFR. If anything, the Alesis speakers have a bit more treble character that gets lost a bit with bigger speakers - especially if you sit too close to the Alesis speakers. That said, to me, it would seem that if there is a significant difference in the sound of differrent FRFR output devices like (headphones, studio monitors, monitor wedge, or FOH speakers) then it sounds like more of a configuration issue or an issue with the output device. Of course a "significant" difference is subjective.

 

[Thomas Larsson]

They should never sound the same

If the sound is good in your headphones you should be scared. It never does usually .In my BeyerDynamic Headphones the sound is allways way to bright compared to any monitors .Actually , that happens in all good studiomonitors , that I´ve tried anyway . I think you might have a dull setting on your preset. I think you should create your preset listening through your monitors, and never mind how the phones sound.

 

[barhrecords]

I agree that you don't need high $$ nearfields to get good sound from the AxeFx II.

My main nearfields are Yamaha NS10's. Passive, far from flat and not too $$. Their price is a little over valued because they are a sought after vintage piece of kit but certainly not 1K a piece!!!

From you description of the sound, there is something a miss. If records sound great on them and the AxeFx doesn't, then it certainly would be possible to get the AxeFx close to the sound of your records. The AxeFx is very high fi and has loads of EQ etc. to dial it in properly.

Could you post an offending preset and let some of us play it back in our listening rooms?

Richard

 

[diggi]

Studio Monitors will never sound the same as headphones. You could however reproduce the sound of headphones (to some degree), by placing your studio monitors on the ground (facing each other) and put your head in between them. Before you do this however, straddle a thick pillow over the speakers, and enclose the back end with another. This will (to some degree) mimic that which you experience with headphones.

The thing to remember, is that some basic acoustic treatment in your room can help you hear sound better, and more accurately. Doing so will help recreate the articulation you hear in headphones, though it will not be exactly the same.

In the end, most studio professionals mix music using both, and some times "split" the sonic difference.

Here is an inexpensive way to build acoustical absorbers that can help treat your room which I've been prescribing for years: How to make a Bass Trap Acoustic Panel (Tutorial) - YouTube

Best of luck with your music!

 

[hoth]

The greatest pure improvement in sound I have gotten is from putting my monitors on Auralex stands and treating the hard surfaces around them with bass traps and dampeners. I would classify the change from the yamaha to the adam as more of a refinement than a major improvement. But if the monitors sound drastically better with material other than the Axe, then I think previous posters are right that it's likely a configuration problem rather than just a room treatment issue. And I wouldn't describe what I hear in an untreated room as a "blanket over the speakers". There still would be liveliness to the sound, just pronounced and strident frequencies throughout the spectrum. At some point I have to wonder about hardware failure with the axe.

 

[The Raven]

Basically what I'm getting from reading all these posts is there is no way in hell I'm going to be able to hear what the AXE FX sounds like in a pure and true form. Maybe saying it sounds like a blanket is over it isn't an appropriate description. It doesn't sound muddy, lose clarity, or anything like that, but it seems like the level of the base shoot up through these monitors. Its like switching from a peavey 6505 to a Mesa Dual Rec. Its not like these monitors sound awful, because literally EVERYTHING else sounds good with them. I'm under a bit of pressure because my friends in one of the bands I'm in expect me to make grade A quality recordings and i just started getting equipment this christmas. I'll try bringing the axe down to GC and see if i can try out different studio monitors with it and shop around a little bit, but just as a clarification, I'm not a recording engineer with enough cash to spend all willy nilly on monitors. I'm a guitarist getting ready to go of to college who wants to get some kick ass tone and try my hand in the recording world and try to make some money some day recording others. As such, i have a budget and its VERY LOW. Take that for whats it is, but id be grateful if posts along the lines "pft then your not going to get a good sound" or anything of the like could be avoided.

 

[hoth]

but it seems like the level of the base shoot up through these monitors.

Hey man, we've all been there. And let me tell you, when you're on the other side of marriage and kids like some of us you probably will have the same budget again . I think you can get some great sounds out of the Axe, you just have to tune your presets on the monitors and not on headphones. I am actually playing on headphones right now and have turned up the bass a lot since the headphones need and can handle the extra bass. If I play this patch through my monitor it would sound really out of whack.

As you gain more experience and hone your mixing skills, you will likely be able to make patches that translate better across different mediums. But honestly, even lots of experienced players on this board have one set of patches for FRFR amplification and another set for headphone listening for exactly the issue you're bumping up against. If you search through some threads, you'll see them talking about it.

Edit: One thing I forgot to add is that as a trick I use a boost pedal with a good EQ before the Axe when I throw on my headphones to play. It's set to generally compensate for the difference between my monitor and headphones. The patches don't sound perfect, but they are a lot closer that way without having to re-tweak everything.

 

[Tommy Tequila]

If the issue really is the bass sounding way boomy/muddy, it's probably 90% the room and 10% your listening position within that room. My M1's sound very balanced at the sweet spot in a non (or minimally) treated room, but move a foot or two forward or back and the sound changes RADICALLY as the standing waves from the low end reinforce and/or cancel.

As I said, try them in another room or do some basic sound treatments in your room or else you'll suffer mightily trying to get a good mix.

What kind of room is it, anyway?

TT

 

[symphx]

I think Mark Days latest setup uses alesis m1 and he certainly knows tone recording and how to rock the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiizouuuuuuuuuuuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[clarky]

just a few observations guys......
though the content of this thread is pretty interesting... well to me for sure... something the OP stated right at the start is kinda unusual..

recorded music through the monitors is great and the Axe is not..
and through cans the Axe sounds great...

not 100% sure what to make of this....

ok... so near field monitors [even low cost ones] attempt to have a very flat frequency response.. so the lows and highs are not boosted and the mids are not cut...
cans however have a tendency to sound extra bright [even very good ones]..

could it be that the Axe sounds great through cans because they accentuate the highs and bring out the definition...
and not so great through the monitors because they're flatter?

there's also the perceived audio thing where higher volumes will tend to brighten the music and lower volumes the highs fall away...
high volumes are very easy to achieve with cans, but upset the street through monitors..
so the OP may be experiencing a combination of the difference in frequency response between the monitors and the cans, mixed with the difference between the relative listening volume maybe??

OP - maybe you could try eq'ing your presets in relation to recorded audio [using it as some sort of reference]....
don't know if it'll help.. but it may be worth a go...

point to note: when guitars are situated within a mix, especially as there would have been some sort of processing on them during mix-down and more on the whole mix during mastering, I suspect that the original tone may be somehow 'smeared'.. kinda like looking at an artists painting with shades on....
so if you do use a song as a reference, try to use that as a rough / loose guide rather than an absolute and keep listening to and judging your own tone first and foremost..

 

[Beefcake]

@Raven - The other big thing to consider is that as soon as you take off the phones the room comes into play.

Curious that this thread went for 17 posts before anyone mentioned this. Others have touched on it now, but it is still probably the most underappreciated factor in all consumer audio so it bears repeating IMO. An average untreated bedroom will be so wildly inconsistent in its low-end response that it matters surprisingly little what speakers you have unless you understand how speaker placement, room modes etc will affect what you are actually hearing. A muffled sound through speakers could very easily (or even most probably) be a bad room mode ringing somewhere between 90-150 Hz.

I would recommend running some low-freq sine sweeps to determine how much and at which frequencies the room is booming, then compensating for that with the Axe's para-eq and seeing if that helps.

 

[Trazan]

Its not like these monitors sound awful, because literally EVERYTHING else sounds good with them.

And how does everything else sound in the cans??

Since everything else sounds good in the speakers, the problem is oviously not the speakers.

 

[barhrecords]

+1 on the above. New speakers will probably have the same issue if the room is the culprit. And most of the monitors in GC will probably sound good if they are in the GC Pro listening room, i.e. a semi-treated space.

Low frequencies are really a diificult issue even for pro studios. Your problem might be as simple as raising the low cut on the amp block up fairly high, 200hz+, to compensate for the out of control lows in your listening room. Keep raising the amp block low cut until the low end gets tight.

Also, as a test of why records played back by the computer sound great but the Axe doesn't. I would try using the AxeFx as an audio interface and play back a record that you think sounds great on your monitors:

Sounds great:

Computer -> monitors

Test this with the same record with the AxeFx acting like the "sound card". The preset should be all shunts, Blank Preset at the end of factory V5 bank C.

Computer -> AxeFx -> monitors

This should sound equally great.

Richard

 

[Beefcake]

Low frequencies are really a diificult issue even for pro studios. Your problem might be as simple as raising the low cut on the amp block up fairly high, 200hz+, to compensate for the out of control lows in your listening room. Keep raising the amp block low cut until the low end gets tight.

This is a good tip, especially as for many applications guitar signal doesn't really need to extend much below 200Hz. That's often more the bass instruments' domain. Playing alone that heavy bottom sounds wicked and feels awesome, but in a mix you have to leave some room for the bass player - unless you play in late 80's Metallica of course.

 

[barhrecords]

This is a good tip, especially as for many applications guitar signal doesn't really need to extend much below 200Hz. That's often more the bass instruments' domain. Playing alone that heavy bottom sounds wicked and feels awesome, but in a mix you have to leave some room for the bass player - unless you play in late 80's Metallica of course.

It *might* be possible to have Bob Rock come in and setup your control room... and it would be awesome

 

[luke]

200hz is G3, your low E string on guitar is 82hz @ E2. By raising your low cut to 200hz you are effecting a 15 semitone region.

Here is visual if it makes it easier:

 

[barhrecords]

Checkout the default Low Cut in the Amp Block of the Friedman models.

Richard

 

[luke]

The biggest change to guitar tone over the past two decades has been the diminishing middle. Having low end is not a bad thing, the guitar gets lost when its primary area in the EQ spectrum, it's mids, evaporate. If it sounds muddy add 1~2 on the middle knob first to see if it brings the preset back to life.