Struggling with single coil pickups and harshness (My fix)

[Spartacus]

Hey good folks,

I’ve had my Ultra for nearly a year now and what an interesting year it has been. I knew that this unit was for me after a few days of usage. But one thing that I’ve always found and struggled with was the high frequencies and harshness most evident with single coils! Humbuckers were fine.

I’ve used EQs and disabled the bright switches, changed the values in the advanced page of the amp module to tame the highs down with some good results. I even purchased a Seymour Duncan pickup booster pedal to lower the peak resonant of my single coil guitars.

What bugged me was the fact that I had to make a lot of changes just to get a basic amp/cab to sound “natural”. I love the chime in the latest releases of firmware but it wasn’t helping my cause! But saying that, the amp models actually sounded better if you know what I mean? (My base line was defaulting both modules by using the units bypass button).

So I decided to plug in my old Digitech GSP 2101 artist in to my pair of Atomic FRs just to hear the cleans. This old unit doesn’t do any amp modeling, but it does have an analog/tube preamp (comp/drive/EQ) and a hardware speaker sim that can but activated via abutton on its XLR outputs. Wow, it really has its own sound – matter of taste if you like or dislike it. It aint no Axe-Fx! But the cleans were pristine and full bodied.

When I was setting up my Ultra again I decided that I’d plug my guitar into the input on the back! I couldn’t believe my ears, this thing is alive. At last I can just use the default settings of the amps and it sounds fantastic. I wish I’d done this eleven months ago, but I didn’t because I thought I read somewhere that the rear input was brighter. Which it is if you change the audio configuration to the rear input, but I’ve left mine to the front input.

So to anyone here who is having a similar experience, can you please try the steps below. It might help.
Plug your guitar into input 1 (left mono) on the back panel. However Do Not set the audio configuration to the rear input – leave it set to the front Inst front jack. Adjust the input level as required.

Guitars I’ve tested were my Fender Roland ready Strat with Kinman 69 plus pickups, a Fender Tele with stock pickups and an Epiphone LP custom with Seymour Duncan Alnico 2 pickups. They all sound better to my ears, more full bodied and no harshness like before.

Please let me know if this works for you?

Cheers

 

[yek]

1. When using the rear input you're connecting an INSTRUMENT level device to a LINE level input. This requires you to turn up the Input Level all the way to get sufficient level. If you don't do this, you're probably losing a lot of headroom and gain.

2. Furthermore, when using the rear input without selecting Rear Input in I/O, you're applying just part of the input processing. My guess is that it makes the S/N ratio worse, and it changes the source tone for sure.

You may like the results, but you're going the wrong route.
Are you sure that your global and patch settings are in good order when using the front input?

 

[Spartacus]

Hey Yek,

Thank you for your response. I fully understand that this is a very unorthodox way of connecting/routing, and that is one of the reasons I’ve posted my findings.

On point number 1: I don’t need to turn the input all the way up – only to 3 O’clock. I do sometimes use boost pedals like the Zvex BOR and the Seymour Duncan Pickup booster, so I leave a little headroom for those.

Number 2: The SNR is fine here, I’m not noticing any issues. I generally don’t play very, very high gain stuff (like metal), but use the cranked Plexi for classic rock and more. In fact, I was running a Zvex FF into a medium gain amp sim last night playing some Muse riffs with any problems…

The wrong route! Well it sure sounds like the correct route to me. Please take into account that I’ve been using the unit for the best part of a year, but always running into the harsh/thin sounding problem when using the factory presets, downloaded patches and building my own from scratch.

Even in bypass mode the front input sounds way to processed (slightly compressed, and very aggressive - in the high frequency's).

I’ve tried every different position on the input knob and adjusted pickup heights too, with not that much success.

I have seen others on here who would appear to have a very similar experience to me. So I’d like to see if this resolves their situation like it has mine.

My guitars are setup correct too, so it’s not to do with fret buzz etc..

Cheers

 

[Jay Mitchell]

On point number 1: I don’t need to turn the input all the way up – only to 3 O’clock.

The reduced gain of the rear input may or may not be a problem. When you use the rear input but select the front input, you are simply introducing a high-frequency cut shelving filter. There are many other ways to implement this, if it is necessary. IME it is not.

Even in bypass mode the front input sounds way to processed (slightly compressed, and very aggressive - in the high frequency's).

IOW, exactly like single coil pickups should sound when played through a neutral system.

I have seen others on here who would appear to have a very similar experience to me. So I’d like to see if this resolves their situation like it has mine.

The resolution that most closely tracks the physical equipment being modeled is a combination of the appropriate cab sim and tone control settings on the amp. I play a Strat through my Axe-Fx/FRFR rig, and I've never had the slightest difficulty taming the highs while using the front input.

 

[yek]

Hey Yek,

Thank you for your response. I fully understand that this is a very unorthodox way of connecting/routing, and that is one of the reasons I’ve posted my findings.

On point number 1: I don’t need to turn the input all the way up – only to 3 O’clock. I do sometimes use boost pedals like the Zvex BOR and the Seymour Duncan Pickup booster, so I leave a little headroom for those.

Number 2: The SNR is fine here, I’m not noticing any issues. I generally don’t play very, very high gain stuff (like metal), but use the cranked Plexi for classic rock and more. In fact, I was running a Zvex FF into a medium gain amp sim last night playing some Muse riffs with any problems…

The wrong route! Well it sure sounds like the correct route to me. Please take into account that I’ve been using the unit for the best part of a year, but always running into the harsh/thin sounding problem when using the factory presets, downloaded patches and building my own from scratch.

Even in bypass mode the front input sounds way to processed (slightly compressed, and very aggressive - in the high frequency's).

I’ve tried every different position on the input knob and adjusted pickup heights too, with not that much success.

I have seen others on here who would appear to have a very similar experience to me. So I’d like to see if this resolves their situation like it has mine.

My guitars are setup correct too, so it’s not to do with fret buzz etc..

Cheers

I should have added: if it works for you, then go ahead by all means.
The reason I'm calling it 'wrong' is that I believe that the guidelines of the designer regarding I/O should be followed.

I just tried your approach myself, and the resulting tone is very dull and lifeless.

So you're using Atomics. Is the tweeter at noon?

The frequency range of the SC's is much broader through the Atomic than through a regular guitar cabinet. Besides using the right cabinet sim, you can tame the highs and lows using the tone controls, or the high/low cut params in the amp block, or the HF Resonance control (9.03) or by using a PEQ after the amp.

 

[kruzty]

The reason I'm calling it 'wrong' is that I believe that the guidelines of the designer regarding I/O should be followed.

Agreed - no one should ever plug a guitar into an amp called a "Bassman" - it was designed for bass.

 

[yek]

The reason I'm calling it 'wrong' is that I believe that the guidelines of the designer regarding I/O should be followed.

Agreed - no one should ever plug a guitar into an amp called a "Bassman" - it was designed for bass.

I mean: "this" designer.

 

[Spartacus]

Hey guys,

The low cut would certainly have something to do with taming the highs. I would like to try to replicate this by using a filter module first in line. Jay do you know the frequency cut and slope are?

After doing some more A/B ing the bypass is in line sound wise with plugging my guitar directly into one of my Atomics via the jack port. I had gotten used to the sound via the rear port when testing before

Hey Yek, the tweeters are at noon on both of them, but worth checking. Always kept them that way, it being the neutral point. And I know that you didn’t mean anything by saying that I was doing it wrong. I’m Irish and we are extremely difficult bunch to offend.

Jay, just quoting you here “I play a Strat through my Axe-Fx/FRFR rig, and I've never had the slightest difficulty taming the highs while using the front input.” This is exactly why I’ve been scratching my head. It only seemed to be like 0.1% of folks here find problems with the high frequency’s when uses single coils. And I’m in that group, everyone else is fine.

Again, this unorthodox routing works for my and it might work for some other people. Not for the most.

Cheers for your input guys

 

[JKos]

> The reason I'm calling it 'wrong' is that I believe that the guidelines of the designer
> regarding I/O should be followed.

And just how many sonic revolutions have been started by someone NOT following the designer's intent for a piece of equipment??? Do what sounds good to you! It cannot harm the Axe-Fx.

- John

 

[Tommy Tequila]

Jay, just quoting you here “I play a Strat through my Axe-Fx/FRFR rig, and I've never had the slightest difficulty taming the highs while using the front input.” This is exactly why I’ve been scratching my head. It only seemed to be like 0.1% of folks here find problems with the high frequency’s when uses single coils. And I’m in that group, everyone else is fine.

Count me in on the troubles with taming SC guitars.

I'm hitting the road for a week, but when I get back I'd be 100% up for trying to get to the bottom of it. Clips demonstrating what we're talking about (we could both have screwy ears, after all) and seeing if we can get some of the tone masters here to pick a stock patch/cab, make it right to their ears and then post it so multiple people can take a listen. Those two things would go a long way to getting the discussion on a less objective basis.

TT

 

[Jay Mitchell]

And just how many sonic revolutions have been started by someone NOT following the designer's intent for a piece of equipment???

In this case, there are no "sonic revolutions" to be found, only a very straightforward HF shelving filter.
[attachment=0:vblh5ay3]Rear Input Wrong.jpg[/attachment:vblh5ay3]
It helps clear up any mystery if you actually identify what is going on with the front input, as I have done. Once you know that, it becomes abundantly clear that there is no "magic," "mojo," or "sonic revolution" whatever to be had by misusing the rear input. You're right that it won't damage the Axe-Fx, but recommending it as some kind of mystic "cure" is just silly.

 

[GM Arts]

I've spent nearly all of my time with the AxeFX and a Telecaster, so I understand the battle against harsh and piercing highs. Here's what worked for me:

(1) A good tone balance - lows, mids and highs all need to be equally present. It can be tempting with guitar tones to cut mids too much. For clean tones this is good for chunky/funky bright tones, but not for sweet highs IMHO. Your low volume clean tones should be muddy with way too much mids for them to sound balanced at high volume. This is more important than everything else below combined.

(2) Use a PEQ block after the amp or cab with band 5 set to blocking. Radley posted a good article on how to set this up, although I disagree with his approach of increasing Q to counteract muddiness this introduces. I prefer to decrease Q and increase frequency simultaneously to find a good balance.

(3) I rarely use the Bright switch with clean tones and single coils - it's can be too much with single coils, specially with low drive settings. If I do use it, I set the bright capacitor to its lowest setting.

(4) Some amp models sound sweeter with higher Presence and lower Treble.

(5) User IRs, specially the RedWirez ones. Its a crude generalisation, but I find the factory IRs a little heavy in the bass and light in the mids, needing radical post EQ to get the tone balance I like. The "right" IR needs very little additional EQ.

(6) The chime in version 9.01 is pure high end sweetness. Just reduce treble for roughly the same "pre-chime" tone balance and the harshness is gone.

Hope this helps.

 

[Spartacus]

Hey John, not sure I’ll be at the forefront of any sonic revolution anytime soon You’re right, it won’t cause the unit any harm, and for me personally, it is great work around and I’m so glad I “misused” it…

Tommy, I’m really looking forward to you testing your unit using this configuration. I hope it helps. I don’t have any recording gear here so I’m unable to post example clips/patches. I will try to figure out some way to record over the next few weeks.

Jay, thanks for taking time and running a test signal in this configuration. Nice to see where and how the highs fall off. I would like to have a hardware/software to do this myself.
Just to clear up a few thing about my post. I never claimed any “magic”, “mojo” or the like. The name of this thread is “Struggling with single coil pickups and harshness (My fix)” so please don’t undermine it by saying the following which was never expressed by me.:

but recommending it as some kind of mystic "cure" is just silly.

I do totally understand that you are one of the Moderators here. I know it’s a very busy BB and you always help us folks out and take time to do so which is appreciated.
I don’t post very often (login a few times per day to read and learn) but felt this was worthwhile, so please respect my genuine motive.

To make clear, the objective here is to share my experience. As I’ve stated, I love this unit, but have struggled in this area – genuine. From what you’ve posted in this thread, you personally haven’t struggled in this area, but others have like myself, Tommy and a very, very small number of others users. If even one other person finds this configuration helpful, wouldn’t that be fantastic? After all, that’s what forums are about.

Hey GM, Some very good tip here. The only ones I haven’t tried are 3 and 5. I’m thinking about getting the Redwirez maybe in the next few months. Folks here have gotten some very good results with them.

For testing I’ve been resetting the amp and cab blocks to defaults. So all the EQs are at noon. I leave the gain and master volume at default values too – less thing to get in the way. I work from home so I get a chance to crank the volume at lunch times when no one is around. I was all the time changing a setting, turning it up, turning it down... But now the models just seem to work. So happy days. Would it be possible to for you to plug into the rear port and setup a basic patch using whatever amp and cab you normally use for a clean and then a dirty one (remember to reset each module to defaults). Just for a test and let me know how it sounds?


Thanks,

 

[GM Arts]

Would it be possible to for you to plug into the rear port and setup a basic patch using whatever amp and cab you normally use for a clean and then a dirty one (remember to reset each module to defaults). Just for a test and let me know how it sounds?

No point for me, Spartacus. I have my patches sounding the way I want with the front input. Cutting the highs (a little like turning the guitar tone knob down a bit) will take me further away from what I like now. And I'd rather spend by AxeFX tweaking time on my next challenge: humbucking pickups

Have you tried Jay's suggestion? Use the front input and put a filter block after the input to shelve off some highs. Should sound the same as what you're doing now. Lot's of players like & use single coils with the tone rolled off a bit (even Eric Johnson's tone pot on the bridge pickup left on 10 works a little like the sweet switch available on some guitars). My own jazz patch uses a treble-cut filter block so I can switch to it and use it without fiddling with tone knobs.

 

[Spartacus]

Ha ha ha, I totally understand GM. Why mess up a good thing.

I haven’t tried Jays suggestion for using the filter block yet. Although I will try that tomorrow –its 1:24AM here in Ireland and I don’t think my neighbors would like a wakeup call this early :lol:

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Jay, thanks for taking time and running a test signal in this configuration.

I did that quite some time ago and linked the chart in a thread on this forum. This subject has come up more than once in the past.

I would like to have a hardware/software to do this myself.

You do. It's called a "treble control," and it does exactly the same thing. You can fool around with the tone stack center frequency and get it to match the graph almost perfectly.

I never claimed any “magic”, “mojo” or the like.

My comment was not directed at you.