Struggling with Marshall Sounds using FM3 + Power Amp + Real Cab

M

Matt007

Inspired
So I’ve been extensively A/B’ing real amps compared to an FM3 through a solid state power amp and real cab at equal volume levels. My signal chain is: guitar => FM3 => SD Power Stage 170 power amp => Real Cab.

For my purposes, I mainly use the FM3 for rehearsals and small gigs with a real cab, so do not use cab sims and FRFR very much.

My question is whether I should be able to get sounds using the above setup that are “fairly similar“ to the sounds of real amps? This is not an “amp in the room” type question comparing real amps to mic’d cab sims. I’m just trying to compare a real amp to the sound coming out of a real cab using the FM3.

I’ve owned a fair amount of Fractal gear so have eliminated all of the obvious variables like making sure cab sims are off, having power amp modeling on, resetting the unit, checking cables, switching cabs, etc.

I’m not trying to match an amp sound exactly by any stretch, just get a pleasing tone that has the same punch and feel of a real tube amp.

For Fender type amps and clean-ish sounds, I can get pretty close. Definitely close enough for my purposes.

For Marshall and distorted type sounds, I have many issues: flubby bass, overly compressed tones, general wet blanket type complaints, tones that just don’t cut through, etc. I have tweaked the EQ endlessly and have tried standard BMT tone adjustments, PEQ, GEQ, drive blocks, etc. I’ve also spent a lot of time researching the Speaker tab in this forum and making every type of adjustment that’s been recommended like low resonant frequency, changing the speaker type, high resonance, etc. I have also tried Fractal presets, Austin Buddy presets, Pete Thorn presets and making my own presets from scratch.

I have full faith in the FM3 product and great respect for the Fractal team. I’m convinced that the error is on my part as the sounds have to be in the box. I’m just endlessly chasing a tone that I can’t coax out of the unit.

Any idea what I’m missing? My biggest guess is that it comes down to the power amp interaction with the speaker cab. I’ve tried the Fryette Power Station and the SD 170 and both have the same dull and flat sounds. Help please. Thanks!
 
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it can, and many touring pros and weekend gigging guys do this. but this will be very difficult to diagnose via text only.

where is your Master Volume set in the Amp block? What Amp models did you try specifically?

maybe those who do this setup can chime in.
 
Thanks Chris. I hear you. Analysis paralysis.

For the Marshall non-master volume amps, I keep MV at 10. For Friedman’s for example, I keep MV generally at default around 4-5 I think.
 
One thing to watch for is where you have the master volume set in your preset. Make sure you don't have the master dimed, or really even set overly high. I know people love to talk about pushing an amps power amp section, but in my experience that only sounds good to a point. If you are ABing the FM3 though the power amp and cab at equal volumes, try setting the patch "master volume" to something that matches the amp you are comparing it to if you haven't already. That could be a part of any discrepancies you are hearing perhaps.

When I had initially compared the Fractal 2204 to my real amp, I felt the Fractal sounded much darker, until I realized my patch had the 2204 master volume set to 4, something I could never do with the real 2204. Once I dropped the Fractal master volume to line up with what I had on the amp, they sounded really close. Close as any two real 2204's will sound to each other IMO. And this was with the Axe FX II at that time.
 
IR'S for FRFR are by definition captured with specific cabs with specific speakers and specific mics at precise locations and so on and so forth... which is then intercepted by your ears and re-processed, and even if you had an IR that matched your cab and speaker perfectly - i.e. an IR that you captured yourself - none of that will match what you are actually hearing with your ear. There is no human ear IR. No amount of computing power can replicate what happens in (and between) your ears. You're damn sure never going to get two presets, one with a real cab and one with a cab block and IR, to sound exactly alike. It's like trying to make "fetch" happen.

I would tell anyone to forget trying to make something sound exactly like this setup or that setup and just go for sounding good and feeling good.
 
I would narrow down whether the issue is with the preamp sim, power amp sim, or both. You could try running the FM3 (with power amp sim turned off) through the effects return of your real amp and tweak the FM3 until it sounds just like the preamp of your real amp. From there, once you know you have the preamp dialed in, turn on the amp sim and run it through your solid state power amp and go from there knowing that you shouldn't have to make any adjustments to the preamp sim.
 
If you find a solution, i'm very interested in how you achieved your matching tone.
Because - i'm planning an almost identical setup (FM3, PS170, Cab) 🤞
 
What real cab are you using? Maybe it does not match the amp model - I have Matrix SS Pwr Amp to 2 112 Mesa Cabs and no tweaking can make them lose their signature sound.
 
Thanks all. Let me try some of these strategies when I can turn up the volume later today. To answer a few questions...

I’m just comparing real amps to Fractal amps through a power amp. No IRs are involved. My real amps aren’t vintage by any stretch... Vox AC15, Marshall Origin, Bluguitar Amp1. I am sure that the FM3 can kick their @sses all over the place.

I have multiple cabs including a Matrix NL12 guitar cab (not the FRFR one) with an Alnico Blue, a 1x12 Greenback and a 1x12 FatCab (Greenback type).

The real amps through any of these cabs sound great. I’m just stuck in mud when using the Fractal through these cabs (feels overly compressed, dull, blanket over speaker, flubby bass).

Once again, it’s not about dialing in anything to match an amp model perfectly, but just getting tones that approximate the feel and punch of the real amps through the same cabs.

I know it’s in my set up, I just can’t diagnose it!

Thanks!
 
Matt007 said:
Thanks all. Let me try some of these strategies when I can turn up the volume later today. To answer a few questions...

I’m just comparing real amps to Fractal amps through a power amp. No IRs are involved. My real amps aren’t vintage by any stretch... Vox AC15, Marshall Origin, Bluguitar Amp1. I am sure that the FM3 can kick their @sses all over the place.

I have multiple cabs including a Matrix NL12 guitar cab (not the FRFR one) with an Alnico Blue, a 1x12 Greenback and a 1x12 FatCab (Greenback type).

The real amps through any of these cabs sound great. I’m just stuck in mud when using the Fractal through these cabs (feels overly compressed, dull, blanket over speaker, flubby bass).

Once again, it’s not about dialing in anything to match an amp model perfectly, but just getting tones that approximate the feel and punch of the real amps through the same cabs.

I know it’s in my set up, I just can’t diagnose it!

Thanks!
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so its just the flubby low end
have you set the cab impedance to the GB or perhaps try some of the 112
impedance options if you are using 112s
for me i cut the Lows at about 110 to 125 on a Marshall
i also have Bass low Demartini used to run his plexi w bass on 9 oclock
try the KT77 in the 70s plexi
 
Thanks @Randalljax. Are you cutting lows in the amp block or somewhere else? I’ve tried everywhere.

I’ve also tried changing the speaker impedance curve to some of the 1x12s. I’ll keep experimenting. Maybe that’s my issue... using a 1x12 on an amp that was modeled with a 4x12 speaker curve...?
 
YMMV, but I have solved a very similar problem (albeit with the AxeFx3) using the multiband compressor block. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-block-compression.166424/ I believe the FM3 also has one. I have both the SD170 and the Matrix GT1000fx and while the Matrix has a slight edge in terms of high end (the SD170 sounds slightly more stiff in comparison), with the MBC block both sound much closer to what I experience with my tube heads.
 
I‘ve had good luck with basic tone controls ,bass and master are the first things I go to, and the amp makes a big difference, super brit, js model, 1970 Marshall , 800 mod is a bright amp ,are some Marshall’s I like ,I don’t have a problem with the blanket over the cab ,but bass I usually cut to about 9:00 mids and treble about 6. I find I go down the rabbit hole if I tweak too much. I just move to another amp 🤓
 
Damn, I was thinking of try FM3 -> Mooer Baby Bomb 30 -> 1x12. This has me a little concerned, even though I used to gig the AX8 -> powerstage 170 -> 2x12 and it was pretty darn good.
Maybe try some less refined Marshall-esque amps like the Dirty Shirley model or similar?
 
I hope you find what it is. How many ohms is your cab? Remember you only get the full 170 watts at 4 ohms. I’m using the FM3 with a SD170 into an 8 ohm Marshall 1960B with V30s and it sounds glorious with a Friedman sim. At 8 ohms I’m still getting around 90 watts and it’s still really loud. But I wouldn’t use a cab rated higher than 8 ohms. You really wanna preserve as much clean headroom and punch as possible.
 
Update after spending some time tweaking again today. Thanks for all the tips.

My current favorite Marshall tone is actually the one I get from the BluGuitar Amp1 (blasphemy, I know, here come the flames) which is apparently matched to a JTM 45/100 Black Flag. It sounds excellent and has great tube punch into both 8ohm and 16ohm cabs.

To get close to this feel, I tried most of the advice above like watching the master volume, trying different speaker impedance curves, inserting the multi band compressor, etc. I also tried out multiple amp models and, as suggested above, moved on quickly if it wasn’t in the ballpark and avoided trying a lot of deep tweaks.

Ultimately, the 2204 Plexi model got me the closest in terms of feel to my ears. The Dirty Shirley was pretty close too though had just a little too much gain that I couldn’t dial out.

Again, for me, it’s less about the actual sounds and more about finding that tone and feel that makes you want to dig into the guitar strings. When you know, you know!

Ultimately, I’m pretty close at this point and happy. There are many great tones in the FM3, which has never been questioned. I appreciate everyone’s help. I do still have a small part that nags at me wondering if the missing link may be in the power amp. Next experiment is to try powering the FM3 through the return of a tube amp.

Thanks all.
 
Matt007 said:
Update after spending some time tweaking again today. Thanks for all the tips.

My current favorite Marshall tone is actually the one I get from the BluGuitar Amp1 (blasphemy, I know, here come the flames) which is apparently matched to a JTM 45/100 Black Flag. It sounds excellent and has great tube punch into both 8ohm and 16ohm cabs.

To get close to this feel, I tried most of the advice above like watching the master volume, trying different speaker impedance curves, inserting the multi band compressor, etc. I also tried out multiple amp models and, as suggested above, moved on quickly if it wasn’t in the ballpark and avoided trying a lot of deep tweaks.

Ultimately, the 2204 Plexi model got me the closest in terms of feel to my ears. The Dirty Shirley was pretty close too though had just a little too much gain that I couldn’t dial out.

Again, for me, it’s less about the actual sounds and more about finding that tone and feel that makes you want to dig into the guitar strings. When you know, you know!

Ultimately, I’m pretty close at this point and happy. There are many great tones in the FM3, which has never been questioned. I appreciate everyone’s help. I do still have a small part that nags at me wondering if the missing link may be in the power amp. Next experiment is to try powering the FM3 through the return of a tube amp.

Thanks all.
Click to expand...

I had the BluGuitar (ME addition?) and it was close, but no cigar to a true tube amp.
To me it was slightly better then digital into solid state power amp which is what you are working with now.
Even digital into tube power + cab can be super, super close but not exactly that same as just a great full tube amp rig.
So, there is always going to be a tiny bit of tradeoff between accuracy, one good tone and all of the amazing things the FM3 brings to the table.
I'm working on similar things now (and actually have been for years with Fractal and other modelers).
I know exactly what to expect, but I do actually get closer and closer each pass.
For me the key is to be able to move effortlessly with silent/headphone play, studio monitors, FRFR, FM3 in front of a tube amp and FM3 into the FX loop of a tube amp. I have not ruled out the powerstage 170 + cab (again). And to do all of that with little or now tweaking to patches is a tall order but not impossible.


I've been playing at all volume levels all day comparing my pedalboard, tube amps modules (Synergy) and integration with the FM3 and also FRFR (sometimes even dual path FRFR + amp) and I'm confidently close!

Also make sure you take breaks AND don't always compare. You need to check each paradigm by itself to see if it is pleasing on it's own merits as well.
 
Gasp100 said:
Also make sure you take breaks AND don't always compare. You need to check each paradigm by itself to see if it is pleasing on it's own merits as well.
Click to expand...

This. In a band context no one will ever be able to tell the difference.
 
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Matt007 said:
Update after spending some time tweaking again today. Thanks for all the tips.

My current favorite Marshall tone is actually the one I get from the BluGuitar Amp1 (blasphemy, I know, here come the flames) which is apparently matched to a JTM 45/100 Black Flag. It sounds excellent and has great tube punch into both 8ohm and 16ohm cabs.

To get close to this feel, I tried most of the advice above like watching the master volume, trying different speaker impedance curves, inserting the multi band compressor, etc. I also tried out multiple amp models and, as suggested above, moved on quickly if it wasn’t in the ballpark and avoided trying a lot of deep tweaks.

Ultimately, the 2204 Plexi model got me the closest in terms of feel to my ears. The Dirty Shirley was pretty close too though had just a little too much gain that I couldn’t dial out.

Again, for me, it’s less about the actual sounds and more about finding that tone and feel that makes you want to dig into the guitar strings. When you know, you know!

Ultimately, I’m pretty close at this point and happy. There are many great tones in the FM3, which has never been questioned. I appreciate everyone’s help. I do still have a small part that nags at me wondering if the missing link may be in the power amp. Next experiment is to try powering the FM3 through the return of a tube amp.

Thanks all.
Click to expand...
You can dial the 2204 as clean as you want. Don't forget the trim knob. ;)
 
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