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Strange! The more (bypassed) Effects the less gain and real-amp-feeling?

Liquid22

Inspired
Hello everyone!

Did I miss something? Can someone recreate the following behavior of the Axe?
(Please don’t come up with the that-can’t-be-It’s-impossible-thing. What I describe is really what I’m hearing and feeling while playing with MY guitar and MY Axe.)

Okay this happened: Weeks ago I found my absolute favorite guitar sound on the Axe. For more fun I added a Looper and after a while I noticed that somehow the real-amp-feeling (let’s say, which we all know since FW10. Now FW15 … Cliff is a genius) was gone. The playing wasn’t flowing anymore but now kind of sticky, so to say. I would simply say I lost gain, but I don’t know if it also has something to do with more latency or the CPU-Usage. As fare as I know it says: contrary to real-life, bypassed effects don't having any influence on the tone-quality of the Axe, right? Not here.

Later I also figured out that the Vol/Pan-Block does the same thing on my Axe. As soon as I replace them with Shunts, the “gain” and real-amp-feeling is back. On the other side, I can’t hear/feel any influence on the lets say “gain”, using other effects like chorus, delay or reverb.

So maybe I missed something and that behavior is obvious for all of you, but I’ve seen so many user-presets witch have allot of permanent bypassed Loopers and Vol/Pan-Blocks in line as their Basic-Preset-Structure. Do they all know and accept the loss of “real-amp-feeling” just to have a handy Basic-Preset?

For those of you, who want to here, see and re-create what I did with a user-preset from our forum:
(I don't what to make it more complicated, because of problems with re-amping (http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/87853-re-amp-problem-help-me-out-[seed].html )the described behavior wasn’t noticeable anymore. So I tried to play the same riff. But it doesn’t matter anyway, because you can try it on your own.)

https://soundcloud.com/user27283128/axegainloss
 

Attachments

tommyco10

Inspired
I must admit I noticed the same thing with the 5150 model. I thought I was hearing things so didn't think too much more about it, but totally independently of this thread I could have sworn something changed by having a bypassed effect in the chain as opposed to a shunt.
 

reclavea

Forum Addict
Check output level settings of bypassed blocks located before amp blocks.

Also, vol/pan block before amp block acts just like riding your volume pot on your guitar affecting gain and tone
 
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Liquid22

Inspired
Check output level settings of bypassed blocks located before amp blocks.

Also, vol/pan block before amp block acts just like riding your volume pot on your guitar affecting gain and tone
I checked:
In this particular preset: Looper (level 0db), Comp (level 0db), Vol/Pan (Vol.= 10, level 0db), Wah (level 0db), drive (level 5), phaser (level 0db)

...although they are bypassed and the level doesn't affect the tone. So the Blocks are like "non existing", right.
 

simeon

Axe-Master
i thought it might be to do with the bypass modes of the fx in front of the amp, but they're all set to thru. then i thought it might be to do with the input select parameters in all the pre-amp blocks, but again, as they're all bypassed, it makes no difference.

i could actually hear no difference between the patches at all.
 
I couldn't hear a difference either man. Makes me wonder if something could be wrong with your Axe. Maybe contact support? Good luck!
 

Liquid22

Inspired
i could actually hear no difference between the patches at all.
Do you mean no differences on my recording or did you tried it on your Axe?

I’m not sure if it makes sense, but I think it may also depends on the output level of the pick-ups (unfortunately I only have my Les Paul with BurstBucker Pro pick-ups here). And I also think you can better hear and even more feel the difference if your noise-gate is turned off. My global noise-gate-offset is 0 db and in the presets threshold is off.
 

Guitarbot

Inspired
I have found that the looper at the end of the chain in parallel with a shunt out and the looper mix set on 100% helped my tone when not using the looper.
 

The_Kid

Veteran
I have actually noticed the same thing as the OP, back on my GEN 1 Ultra. It seems when I create 'basic' patches, amp/cab/reverb....I can dial in a great tone. I then use that amp block as a global amp so I can keep consistent amp sounds between song presets. When I would then add the blocks needed for the presets such as effects, lead boosts and such....even though they are bypassed, I noticed it seems to lack that guitar > amp type sound. Certain blocks seem more guilty of this than others...I havent noticed the looper issue....but pitch/vol blocks for sure.

If I add an Advanced Whammy block at the beginning of my chain, and set my Exp 2 pedal to control the pitch....so...toe down would be normal pitch, and heel down would be an octave down.....even with the toe down position (no shifting) there is a lag in the 'wet' sound...and an change in the tone....forcing me to also add Exp 2 auto engage settings to the bypass modifier.

It's not a huge deal as I've worked around it...and have been happy with my tones....but I also notice a difference with my unit, between just using shunts, and having bypassed blocks in the routing.
 

Liquid22

Inspired
Good to know that I'm not the only one who notice the difference. I also made visible below, what I was talking about ... although I think the differences are no big deal in hearing but I think more in play-feeling.

I tried a second time with re-amping and with another factory-preset.
Here's the result (click to zoom into the AniGif):

green= only Amp and Cab and Shunts (5153 Blue (without).sys)
blue= Amp and Cab and other bypassed Blocks (5153 Blue (with).syx)

Maybe it's now more noticeable in this simple recording.
(I think the sound with only Amp, Cam und Shunts is more open and with more brilliance and details . With the bypassed Blocks it is more like the Axe before UltraRes an in earlier Firmwares)
Actually you have to jump between the preset recordings to hear the differences. As I sad I think you have to play on your own to really notice what I mean.

https://soundcloud.com/user27283128/axegainloss2-both
 

Attachments

javajunkie

Moderator
Moderator
If you have the blocks set up correctly, bypassing then or using a shunt will be exactly the same. I know this is the case in the Vol/pan block. When the vol block, volume is at 10 and level at 0, it is exactly the same here. Absolutely no measurable difference. The loop block should be the same, but I have not tested.
 

The_Kid

Veteran
I'm not sure how blocks could be setup 'wrong'. I'm not arguing with you java, but I've noticed the issue with the blocks I've mentioned as well. Its kinda the same effect I get where when I first call up a preset, I get the tone I like...but when I click edit on the amp block, there is an audible (thought very very slight) dip in the sound...and the 'return' audio is slightly less 'brilliant' as the OP mentioned.
 

javajunkie

Moderator
Moderator
I'm not sure how blocks could be setup 'wrong'. I'm not arguing with you java, but I've noticed the issue with the blocks I've mentioned as well. Its kinda the same effect I get where when I first call up a preset, I get the tone I like...but when I click edit on the amp block, there is an audible (thought very very slight) dip in the sound...and the 'return' audio is slightly less 'brilliant' as the OP mentioned.
I am not experiencing that with the volume block here. Provided it doesn't have anything panned and the volume is at 10, it passes audio. If it is bypassed it passes audio or is muted.

I tried inserting a loop and compared it muted to a shunt, I am not seeing or hearing a difference in my setup.

I'm not saying that you are not, but I am not getting that here.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
A bypassed block does nothing more than copy the input to the output. Any perceived changes in sound are just that, perceived. If you convince yourself something sounds different you will likely believe you hear a difference.

The figure above proves this. There is no difference between the two clips (aside from differences due to sampling by the DAW) yet the author believes he hears something.
 

chris

Legend!
if you look at that GIF, some parts of the wave go down, but others go up.

so that is inconclusive and a bad test.

if you think it is happening, then it is.

it is not happening for anyone else as you describe.

the whammy adds a lag because it is detecting and changing pitch, even if the pedal is at 100% or whatever - auto-engage is the solution for that; the pitch detection (source of lag) is turned off when the block is bypassed. that is not the same thing the OP is describing.
 

The_Kid

Veteran
I agree Chris, and the bypass thing for the Whammy isnt a big deal. and I also agree with Cliff regarding the 'perceived difference'. I think in my case with the 'edit' button being pushed...that slight dip in audio is enough to trick the ears.
 

Liquid22

Inspired
I don’t think it’s so easy to explain with self convincing or tricked ears. I play guitar for over 25 years now. I know what I’m hearing and feeling in my fingers. Besides that , why would I expect differences at some blocks and not at other blocks, out of nothing? I was convinced that bypassed block = not-existing block.

I’m sure if you were here in this room and you would play my guitar you would be convinced immediately. Unfortunately I can’t do it with my recording-skills or resulting sub-optimal Figures from it. As I mentioned before, I have problems with re-amping and the output level from Cubase. I was hoping that you all can hear it anyway. The different feeling while playing is the other thing.

I don’t know what technical reasons could be responsible for the fact, that some users can’t re-create the behaviour and others (at least three of us) had discovered it already before. Maybe at the end it even hasn’t directly to do with the Axe. I don’t know if it could be the quality of the guitar cable or the output-level of the pick-ups that makes the behaviour noticeable or not.

Although the impact is barely noticeable, I thought the Axe is so close to the original amps that this little discovery might be interesting for upcoming FWs, if enough users can re-create it . So an open ear for this kind of posts can’t be wrong, although it seems to be impossible or not logical by now.

I wanted a feedback, now I have one. Now I can cope with my described problem so that I get the last kick of realism and feeling to the sound. I’ll just get rid of every unnecessary bypassed block and will use the parallel-looper-trick (thanks to Guitarbot).

Have fun with your Axe. I’m still blown away from FW15.

Thanks so fare
 
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