Stock vs Commerial Cabs (and where to start)

[Dpoirier]

I share the same uncertainty expressed by the original poster. I play in a cover band and need to be able to cover a broad spectrum of sounds - from Fender to Marshall to Mesa - so I've been using the factory cabs because I don't want to buy a dozen different overkill cab packs (overkill for my needs, probably not overkill for anyone else). The cab packs that I bought have only overwhelmed me to the point of not using them.

In the past, I've asked Mikko (ML Sound Labs) if he was planning to release a sampler pack, you know, a pack intended for "surface scratching" the world of ML cabs. But even tough it would be the ideal solution for me, I can see that it might be a challenge to ML Sound Labs' revenue stream, if such a release would impact the sales of his other, heavier-duty cab packs. Perhaps it might happen one day, if ever the sales taper off, but I'm no longer holding my breath.

I bought two cab packs in the past, and it just hasn't worked for me. I got so overwhelmed by the huge variety that I never got to the point of using any at all. All my gig presets are using factory presets, except two that are using Mikko's "gift to mankind" IR from some time back. All the cabs in the two cab packs I bought are yet-to-be-used. For me, a simple sampler pack with only a handful of Mikko's favorite mixes of Fender, Marshall and Mesa cabs would be the missing magic ingredient. So I've been enjoying Cliff's inclusion of some of the various cab packs into the factory collection, as it represents the best workaround for me in the absence of a sampler pack.

 

[musicman0001]

For my ears, no, no quality difference.

Many of the stock IRs actually come from various Cab Packs and commercial IRs offered by Fractal and other response vendors. Either a direct file included in one of those offerings, or at least maybe a custom mix done by someone at Fractal or one of the IR providers and included in the firmware. So like the 4x12 Marshall Pre-Rola 55 and 75 IRs for example (factory cabs 54 and 55) come from Cab Pack 20. However, that's not to say that the IRs in 20 are somehow "better", there's just more of them (more choices of position, mic type, etc.). So, if someone likes those IRs, but wants a response that's a bit warmer or brighter or tighter or darker or grittier or chimey-er or whatever, they might want to get cab pack 20 so they can have another mic and mic position to choose from (or, more than likely, mix together in cab-lab) which will more naturally help them shape the frequency response of their sound one way or another, but it's not like they're getting more fidelity or resolution out of the cab pack IRs than what's offered in the stock IR.

I think the main selling point to purchasing a commercial IR, beyond tweaking the sounds to be more of what the player wants, is that some of them might offer a speaker not really covered much in the stock IRs...

Never better or worse or anything, just "more different"

Thanks!

Based upon all replies to me it means the following:

- There are no real big differences in stock or commercial cab ir's quality wise
- Cab IRs all are a mix of soundcapturing frequecies of the choosen cab and mic and mic position
- As commercial Cab IR companies will use high quality gear its not a matter of quality differences but taste and preference
- Buying a cab pack will deliver more sound choices as it will bring more frequencie fingerprints to choose from for you specific sound needs
- more detailed outcome: buying 1 or more cab packs gives mainly more high quality CHOICES
~ every cab sounds different so you have more choice on getting your taste of cab (even when they have same name i.e. mesa 4x12 V30 cab can already sound different when you buy one extra next year
~ every mic will have then on top of that even more choices (same cab, same position, but different mic)
~ then you have that the position of the mic will have a big impact which if you deliver a lot of mic positions will deliver more choices on same cab, same mic but different position)
~ last but not least you can mixs the outcome of the above

To me this means in general (taken into account that all have done their best to capure all with great quality) that this way you will have tons and tons of choices to have the same input to the cab block as output - put to the real mi (daw, pa, frfr speaker).
And its greatly a matter of taste & preference.

Is this the correct summary?

 

[musicman0001]

I share the same uncertainty expressed by the original poster. I play in a cover band and need to be able to cover a broad spectrum of sounds - from Fender to Marshall to Mesa - so I've been using the factory cabs because I don't want to buy a dozen different overkill cab packs (overkill for my needs, probably not overkill for anyone else). The cab packs that I bought have only overwhelmed me to the point of not using them.

In the past, I've asked Mikko (ML Sound Labs) if he was planning to release a sampler pack, you know, a pack intended for "surface scratching" the world of ML cabs. But even tough it would be the ideal solution for me, I can see that it might be a challenge to ML Sound Labs' revenue stream, if such a release would impact the sales of his other, heavier-duty cab packs. Perhaps it might happen one day, if ever the sales taper off, but I'm no longer holding my breath.

I bought two cab packs in the past, and it just hasn't worked for me. I got so overwhelmed by the huge variety that I never got to the point of using any at all. All my gig presets are using factory presets, except two that are using Mikko's "gift to mankind" IR from some time back. All the cabs in the two cab packs I bought are yet-to-be-used. For me, a simple sampler pack with only a handful of Mikko's favorite mixes of Fender, Marshall and Mesa cabs would be the missing magic ingredient. So I've been enjoying Cliff's inclusion of some of the various cab packs into the factory collection, as it represents the best workaround for me in the absence of a sampler pack.

You express my feeling/concern on this subject: and reading all we have to live with it as its all a matter of taste. Every amp sounds different on a different cab and with cab ir's the choice is even way bigger now as in the equation we also have mic & mic position. And even mixes of that (cab ir mixed together).

Which means to me that using many amps without too big soundjumps a cab pack will not suit or fit all my needs. So either i just accept that its not exactly what i want or heavily search for cab irs that do

its a journey

 

[lexman]

I don't get why this is a big deal for people - if you are able to drop $2000 + on this box, why would you not spend an extra $15 to $30 on at least one cab pack (be it FAS or 3rd party) to expand the sound possibilities?

 

[musicman0001]

I don't get why this is a big deal for people - if you are able to drop $2000 + on this box, why would you not spend an extra $15 to $30 on at least one cab pack (be it FAS or 3rd party) to expand the sound possibilities?

I'm not making a big deal out of this. I wanted to understand the subject in terms of quality and differences.
To me (if my summary is correct) its a matter of taste.

And indeed if there is a cab pack or cab IR that really makes my life and tone easy and complete I will buy such in an instance

but that was not my question....

 

[lexman]

Is it worth it - absolutely - its a cheap 'upgrade'
As for your tastes in amps/cabs - do some research - a few of the FAS cab packs have a mix of speaker cabs - and also check out youtube - there are lots of videos on various cab packs. I don't think anyone can tell you what to buy - at the end of the day only you know the sound of your own gear and what sound you are looking for - happy hunting ... its fun

 

[Guitarjon]

One thing to also keep in mind is that some IR developers like Fractal Audio themselves and Ownhammer have been really improving their IR capture techniques.
Fractal has introduced the mic + di capture method for instance.

Some of the factory IR's are older and don't encompass the new capture techniques but
some of the FAS factory IR's have used the new method so you can try those in the box.
For the new V4 Ownhammer IR's I recommend checking out the free Mesa Boogie pack.
That way you can also check out the feature set.

 

[Hubi]

I´ve purchased Cabpacks from OH and CabIR. Depends on your personal taste what´s the best IR and the best Company.

But - I can´t achieve such a sound with the stockIR´s - don´t like the old Redwirez (I´ve bought the pack years ago with the Ultra) and many StockIR´s with the M160 Mic - to bassy. can´t unterstand why many here like them, very bassy, I think.

I like the single Mics in the Cabpacks the most, to create a special but quick tone for me an the other guitarist in our band.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

many StockIR´s with the M160 Mic - to bassy. can´t unterstand why many here like them, very bassy, I think.

The M160 is like an inbetween SM57 and R121. I also use it as a blend mic with the SM57. I think there are different use cases for IR's. I believe guitarists that mainly play at home alone gravitate towards darker IR's like M160 IR's while guitarists that use guitars in a band mix will appreciate something a lot brighter. Sometimes a single SM57 IR can sound better in many ways than a mix of many IR's. That being said I personally love two mic mixes and usually it's the SM57 and a blend mic which can be which ever but right now I'm preferring another SM57, MD421 or M160 but definitely the R121 blended in for Marshall tones.

 

[musicman0001]

found a nice website where you can hear impact of microphone on sound.
maybe there are more examples, i will add them when found.

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/18_Cab_Mics_You_Should_Meet

 

[musicman0001]

The M160 is like an inbetween SM57 and R121. I also use it as a blend mic with the SM57. I think there are different use cases for IR's. I believe guitarists that mainly play at home alone gravitate towards darker IR's like M160 IR's while guitarists that use guitars in a band mix will appreciate something a lot brighter. Sometimes a single SM57 IR can sound better in many ways than a mix of many IR's. That being said I personally love two mic mixes and usually it's the SM57 and a blend mic which can be which ever but right now I'm preferring another SM57, MD421 or M160 but definitely the R121 blended in for Marshall tones.

Indeed there is a difference in getting you guitar in the mix and/or hearing you guitar tone when playing home alone trough a monitor. The in the mix sound is general not delivering the full the tone but better for the mix of the music or band in relation to the other instruments (bass, drums, keys, vocals etc..) This is something i will dive into for sure as im learning a lot here at this forum!!

 

[tallcoolone]

I don't get why this is a big deal for people - if you are able to drop $2000 + on this box, why would you not spend an extra $15 to $30 on at least one cab pack (be it FAS or 3rd party) to expand the sound possibilities?

I can only speak for myself, but I just feel it's not needed. It's not like the older cabs are 'lower quality' and it's not like there aren't a plethora of choices in the box already. Whenever I start to try and compare more than 2 or 3 IRs for a preset the differences just get fuzzy anyway. Never mind a download of dozens upon dozens of different mics/placements and mixing options....

Do you really want to 'get the sound just right', or do you want to play the guitar??

 

[musicman0001]

I can only speak for myself, but I just feel it's not needed. It's not like the older cabs are 'lower quality' and it's not like there aren't a plethora of choices in the box already. Whenever I start to try and compare more than 2 or 3 IRs for a preset the differences just get fuzzy anyway. Never mind a download of dozens upon dozens of different mics/placements and mixing options....

Do you really want to 'get the sound just right', or do you want to play the guitar??

Hey Lexman,

I guess some guys would like both. I know I do!

And speaking for myself my number one priority is having fun. And having fun is like taste also subjective and personal. Actually a lot of things discussed here are subjective. The only real subject that can be regarded as non subjective is something that is measuable and factual like frequencies in from guitar and frequencies out to any speaker which can be measured upon loss of signal. But all other things like tone and sound is Always personal and subjective.

To me having fun is: play my guitar and have a really nice sound and enjuy myself and loosing myself while playing AND I also like to see how I can get things recorded and get the sound just right. As my likings of me playing guitar OR have a guitar through the MIX wioth others are to me 2 very seperate things.So I really like to do BOTH!

The Original posting was about difference in quality of CAB IR's and packs. And it seems although there are some small differences in ways of working and possibilities (like the DI), all other things are a matter of opinion, preference or taste. And then it's for everyone different. And different is OK

 

[musicman0001]

One thing to also keep in mind is that some IR developers like Fractal Audio themselves and Ownhammer have been really improving their IR capture techniques.
Fractal has introduced the mic + di capture method for instance.

Some of the factory IR's are older and don't encompass the new capture techniques but
some of the FAS factory IR's have used the new method so you can try those in the box.
For the new V4 Ownhammer IR's I recommend checking out the free Mesa Boogie pack.
That way you can also check out the feature set.

I have downloaded at http://www.ownhammer.com/free/v4-demo/ and hope that's what you ment!?

As I only see a load of WAV files. And not sure if I have downloaded the correct one.

(new in this subject as you can see, have only played with STOCK and with 1 cab syx file included in a AXE preset.)

What do I need to do now?

 

[York Audio]

I have downloaded at http://www.ownhammer.com/free/v4-demo/ and hope that's what you ment!?

As I only see a load of WAV files. And not sure if I have downloaded the correct one.

(new in this subject as you can see, have only played with STOCK and with 1 cab syx file included in a AXE preset.)

What do I need to do now?

Go here http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-cab-lab-ir-mixer.php and download Cab-Lab Lite at the bottom of the page for free. Read the manual and it will show you how to convert the .WAV files to .sysx and you can load them into your unit.

I would start with the IR's in the Quick Start folder. The OH1 and JS mixes are my personal favorites, but see what sounds good to you.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I can only speak for myself, but I just feel it's not needed. It's not like the older cabs are 'lower quality' and it's not like there aren't a plethora of choices in the box already. Whenever I start to try and compare more than 2 or 3 IRs for a preset the differences just get fuzzy anyway. Never mind a download of dozens upon dozens of different mics/placements and mixing options....

Do you really want to 'get the sound just right', or do you want to play the guitar??

I completely agree with you that it's better to play more and spend less time fine tuning your sound. However I will flip this upside down for you.

I'm not sure if it's the case for everyone but when I was using "not so great IR's" I spent a lot of time tweaking the presets to try and make them work. Actually I felt like I had to start tweaking the amp settings every time I picked up my guitar and I literally thought that the amp modeling was "not quite there yet" and I was trying to set the knobs to sound somewhat close to a real amp. But then when I plugged that Standard Axe-Fx into the return of my real Mesa Recto it sounded pretty much identical to the real Recto. Why do you think that is?

Well that's when you realize that there was nothing wrong with the amp modeling but the problem was cabinet modeling all along. That's why even now we still have people using Axe-Fx Ultra's who are really happy with how it sounds. What I'm trying to get at here is that you will eventually spend less time tweaking once you get the IR side of things taken care of. For example here's a video that shows how fast you can get mix-ready professional grade tones with the new ML Dizzy 4x12 Cab Pack:



Without good IR's my Axe-Fx would not be a plug'n'play solution for me. I can just turn it on and start playing and even recording straight away with confidence that it'll sound incredible. Even if I want to create a new preset it will only take me a minute or two.

Do you really want to 'get the sound just right'?

That's obviously a subjective question but the way I see it is that if you spent a lot of money getting a Fractal unit and its most powerful sound shaping tool is IR technology how can you not be interested in at least trying out one Cab Pack considering how incredibly cheap they all are. I've bought string sets worth more than a Cab Pack... and the set wasn't even good.

 

[musicman0001]

Go here http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-cab-lab-ir-mixer.php and download Cab-Lab Lite at the bottom of the page for free. Read the manual and it will show you how to convert the .WAV files to .sysx and you can load them into your unit.

I would start with the IR's in the Quick Start folder. The OH1 and JS mixes are my personal favorites, but see what sounds good to you.

YES! IT WORKED! And indeed it's quite easy when you know how to do it. So I created my first personal IR from a WAV file and put it in my AXE FX so I can choose it as an User CAB or choose it from the

And indeed already when using the first V4 quickfolder CAB IR with 57 mic there is a difference in clarity and how the guitar sounds alone and in the mix. Now I have to find out what works for me as now there are so many more options.

Also did a recording with it and although the difference are not VERY BIG it has great effect on the the total mix. With the way it was set up in the latest recodring with this new cab IR I noticed that when I put too much volume I was getting in frond of the vocals. So there was way more frequencies in the same level as the vocals. And also the way you place the guitar in the mix has great effect on that (played around with 4 different guitarparts with different volume levels on and of in the mix for half an hour) and definitely placing and volume and frequencies had all impact on the mix and the other instruments. And this means to me that "In Da Mix" is definitely different then just liking how your guitar sounds and feels stand alone.

It all will be quite a JOURNEY all these things I can do with the AXE FX. So much FUN!

Summary:
- There are difference in CAB IR's
- Old ones, Res and Utrares
- Difference in recordingstyles and techniques
- Done in a studio or done in a noisy or non studio place with lots of reflections
- My opinion is that cab IR's and mic's are very depending on taste, opinion, preferences. Thus very subjective & personal
- For me there is a difference in how a guitar/amp/cab sounds in the MIX (recording) compared to how I like guitar sound and tone standalone (playing home)
- As I also play trough stereo TUBE amp and marshall 4x12 1960 Joe Satriani and 2x 1912 (for the stereo effect) again there is another sound and preference. As here one also can't beat the size of the sound (the body of the sound) AND THE FEEL of the tone and sound that I like very much as a guitar player comming from big size 4x12 instead of small monitors or FRFR speakers.
- I like playing around with all these kinds of routings and speaker combinations. As also playing home and playing at gig level is already having quite a difference on how I listen or feel my guitar sound (and unfortunately I'm quite sensitive and my brain and ears really seem to hear all these small details hahahaha).

 

[musicman0001]

I completely agree with you that it's better to play more and spend less time fine tuning your sound. However I will flip this upside down for you.

I'm not sure if it's the case for everyone but when I was using "not so great IR's" I spent a lot of time tweaking the presets to try and make them work. Actually I felt like I had to start tweaking the amp settings every time I picked up my guitar and I literally thought that the amp modeling was "not quite there yet" and I was trying to set the knobs to sound somewhat close to a real amp. But then when I plugged that Standard Axe-Fx into the return of my real Mesa Recto it sounded pretty much identical to the real Recto. Why do you think that is?

Well that's when you realize that there was nothing wrong with the amp modeling but the problem was cabinet modeling all along. That's why even now we still have people using Axe-Fx Ultra's who are really happy with how it sounds. What I'm trying to get at here is that you will eventually spend less time tweaking once you get the IR side of things taken care of. For example here's a video that shows how fast you can get mix-ready professional grade tones with the new ML Dizzy 4x12 Cab Pack:



Without good IR's my Axe-Fx would not be a plug'n'play solution for me. I can just turn it on and start playing and even recording straight away with confidence that it'll sound incredible. Even if I want to create a new preset it will only take me a minute or two.


That's obviously a subjective question but the way I see it is that if you spent a lot of money getting a Fractal unit and its most powerful sound shaping tool is IR technology how can you not be interested in at least trying out one Cab Pack considering how incredibly cheap they all are. I've bought string sets worth more than a Cab Pack... and the set wasn't even good.

Hi,
Saw you in different threads last few weeks and as I was not ready yet for IR's I didn't really ask anything yet.
I have some questions to you, hope you wanna answer them

1. In what matter are you related to Fractal Audio and AXE FX?
- are you working at FAS or ML Audio is it's own company?
2. Do you also have wav's or syx that can be (freely) used for testing cab IR's
3. Are all your cab IR's UltraRes
4. Do you have CAB IR's (with different microphones) for:
- Marshall 4x12 1960 Joe Satriani Blue edition
- Marshall 1x12 2912
- Kings Kabinet 2x V30
As these are my own cab's and would be great having roughly similar (studio mic's recorded) Cab IR's so I can set them at the end when playing with real CAB and trough PA.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

1. In what matter are you related to Fractal Audio and AXE FX?
- are you working at FAS or ML Audio is it's own company?
2. Do you also have wav's or syx that can be (freely) used for testing cab IR's
3. Are all your cab IR's UltraRes
4. Do you have CAB IR's (with different microphones) for:
- Marshall 4x12 1960 Joe Satriani Blue edition
- Marshall 1x12 2912
- Kings Kabinet 2x V30
As these are my own cab's and would be great having roughly similar (studio mic's recorded) Cab IR's so I can set them at the end when playing with real CAB and trough PA.

1. I've created Fractal Audio's official Cab Packs 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 (only the ML portion), 16, 18, 19, 20, 23 and 24 which can be found in here: http://shop.fractalaudio.com/Software_Downloads_s/54.htm. That makes 13 different Cab Packs that have been released at this point. My IR releases are exclusive to Fractal Audio and my whole principle of creating IR's is designed to be an extension to Fractal Audio units with extremely clean and accurate IR captures. Take a look at this video to see how realistic my IR's are compared to a real amp and cabinet being miked up.

2. None of my official Cab Packs are available in .wav format but you can use the IR's we used for my band's EP by downloading both the EP and the IR's from here. The shooting method for these is not completely the same and it was not done in the same place I shoot IR's but they work great as teasers for people who want to know what my IR's can sound like.

Also I released a free Pre-Rola preset as a thank you to this community that's using an IR from Cab Pack 20. Try that one out for some "based on Marshall" vibes: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threa...0-preset-cab-bundle-jmpre-1-brit-pr75.111909/

3. Yes, all my IR's in the Fractal Store are now in UltraRes 2.0 format.

4. At this point sadly no. Maybe in future.

 

[musicman0001]

1. I've created Fractal Audio's official Cab Packs 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 (only the ML portion), 16, 18, 19, 20, 23 and 24 which can be found in here: http://shop.fractalaudio.com/Software_Downloads_s/54.htm. That makes 13 different Cab Packs that have been released at this point. My IR releases are exclusive to Fractal Audio and my whole principle of creating IR's is designed to be an extension to Fractal Audio units with extremely clean and accurate IR captures. Take a look at this video to see how realistic my IR's are compared to a real amp and cabinet being miked up.

2. None of my official Cab Packs are available in .wav format but you can use the IR's we used for my band's EP by downloading both the EP and the IR's from here. The shooting method for these is not completely the same and it was not done in the same place I shoot IR's but they work great as teasers for people who want to know what my IR's can sound like.

Also I released a free Pre-Rola preset as a thank you to this community that's using an IR from Cab Pack 20. Try that one out for some "based on Marshall" vibes: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threa...0-preset-cab-bundle-jmpre-1-brit-pr75.111909/

3. Yes, all my IR's in the Fractal Store are now in UltraRes 2.0 format.

4. At this point sadly no. Maybe in future.

Thanks!