Still struggling a bit in FOH

andyp13

andyp13

Power User
I just can't seem to find 'that sound' in the front of house, I get a good sound from my cab (stood next to it, as it icepicks the further away I am) and it is this 'close' sound I would like.... I'm using the stock cab sims that came with the Axe, would it help if I bought some cab sims? And if so which are recommended - I play Soul, Blues, Funk so I tend to stay clear of 4x12's etc I'm using a 1x12 guitar cab.
I did try to do an IR of my cab but it really doesn't sound good. Any advice - I am going to hire a room and set up the rig (HK Audio Big Base) and have a play with it - but a heads up advice would be great in preparation. :)
 
Try some different IR's, such as the 4x12 cabs. I actually use 4x12 cabs for nearly every style of music, and with every amp model. In reality I probably wouldn't use a Fender amp with a 4x12, I'd use a 1x12 or 4x10 etc, but the Axe and reality don't always match up.

Don't think "I wouldn't use a 4x12 with greenbacks with this amp", instead ignore the name of the cabinet and just use your ears. If it sounds good, then its as "correct" of pairing as it needs to be
 
All audiences at medium and large shows where a miked cab is used, and every quality live and studio recording, features a closed miked guitar sound. You are very used to hearing it as a listener, but not as a player. Even when/if the FOH tone is dialed in perfect, it can seam wrong to the player because of the player's perception. It's something that some players never bond with.

IMHO You never will get (and never have gotten) 'That sound' at the FOH. It's a futile exercise. As I'm sure you've heard here in the forum, a close miked sound is very different than an off-axis guitar cab. And honestly 'that sound' might not be the best sound for FOH?

I have been trying to get the miked sound that I grew up listening to since I started playing. So luckily for me, the Axe-Fx lets me have it with ease.

Good luck Andy, I hope you find what you're looking for too...
 
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First I got my Guitar cab sound as good as I like. Then I use the fx lop for FOH and use a 4 x 12 cab sim to FOH, use an eq block at the end of the FOH channel chain, and eq to get rid of shrills and booms coming out of the FOH cabs. I get it real close so the rest is up to the FOH tech.
 
Another option, to preserve your sanity (and ours) since you've endlessly being going around in circles with regards to your live tone is simply get rid of the cab on stage, get yourself a decent set of IEM's, and dial in a nice tone. You can monitor yourself from the same feed, plus or minus other instruments to taste, as your sending to FOH

You'll finally avoid the issues of on-stage and FOH sounding different to you, avoid issues with needing a cab on stage and the directional nature of it, having to wonder if the audience hears what you hear, etc etc.
 
using a real cab and like your proximity but hate the ice pick at distance?
solve that with using a Plexiglass Baffle in front of your speaker.
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andyp13 said:
I just can't seem to find 'that sound' in the front of house, I get a good sound from my cab (stood next to it, as it icepicks the further away I am) and it is this 'close' sound I would like.... I'm using the stock cab sims that came with the Axe, would it help if I bought some cab sims? And if so which are recommended - I play Soul, Blues, Funk so I tend to stay clear of 4x12's etc I'm using a 1x12 guitar cab.
I did try to do an IR of my cab but it really doesn't sound good. Any advice - I am going to hire a room and set up the rig (HK Audio Big Base) and have a play with it - but a heads up advice would be great in preparation. :)
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I have the same issue. It never sounds as good as a mic on the real cab. Not sure why. I tried many cab blocks and bought a few cab packs. It just sounds thin for lack of a better word. Especially on my high gain patches. The "chug" sounds whimpy from the DI but not from my stage cab (via matrix power amp).
 
Do what axe user Stef Carpenter of Deftones does, run your axe and cab to a radial jdx DI box and send the blend of the two to FOH, you'll have to put an FX loop in for output 2 of course
 
exleper said:
I have the same issue. It never sounds as good as a mic on the real cab. Not sure why. I tried many cab blocks and bought a few cab packs. It just sounds thin for lack of a better word. Especially on my high gain patches. The "chug" sounds whimpy from the DI but not from my stage cab (via matrix power amp).
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apples and oranges
 
andyp13 said:
I just can't seem to find 'that sound' in the front of house, I get a good sound from my cab (stood next to it, as it icepicks the further away I am) and it is this 'close' sound I would like.... I'm using the stock cab sims that came with the Axe, would it help if I bought some cab sims? And if so which are recommended - I play Soul, Blues, Funk so I tend to stay clear of 4x12's etc I'm using a 1x12 guitar cab.
I did try to do an IR of my cab but it really doesn't sound good. Any advice - I am going to hire a room and set up the rig (HK Audio Big Base) and have a play with it - but a heads up advice would be great in preparation. :)
Click to expand...
what you hear standing close to your cab can't be replicated. you're hearing a sound way off axis that's also bouncing off the room around you, which is further exacerbated if it's an open back cab that's anywhere near walls. what you hear as you move away and your ear is more on axis with tthe speaker is a truer representation of what your tone actually sounds like. if you tweaked your actual tone anywhere near what you hear off axis, that amazing tone will be an awful muddy mess when you're next to your cab.
 
I do wonder why so many people fret over this amp in the room sound with modelers. It's not like with traditional close up miced tube amps the FOH and audience were getting that sound to begin with. If anything with modelers we, the guitarists, are now finally getting what everyone else already heard.
 
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jlynnb1 said:
what you hear standing close to your cab can't be replicated. you're hearing a sound way off axis that's also bouncing off the room around you, which is further exacerbated if it's an open back cab that's anywhere near walls. what you hear as you move away and your ear is more on axis with tthe speaker is a truer representation of what your tone actually sounds like. if you tweaked your actual tone anywhere near what you hear off axis, that amazing tone will be an awful muddy mess when you're next to your cab.
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Do you believe this also applies to FRFR cabs?
 
lqdsnddist said:
Another option, to preserve your sanity (and ours) since you've endlessly being going around in circles with regards to your live tone is simply get rid of the cab on stage, get yourself a decent set of IEM's, and dial in a nice tone. You can monitor yourself from the same feed, plus or minus other instruments to taste, as your sending to FOH

You'll finally avoid the issues of on-stage and FOH sounding different to you, avoid issues with needing a cab on stage and the directional nature of it, having to wonder if the audience hears what you hear, etc etc.
Click to expand...

I actually have some ACS IEM's (the top of the range ones with the built in mics) but I can't go fully Iem as the rest of the band (not on IEM's need to hear my guitar etc....
As I tried the FRFR route and failed miserably with the matrix Q12, I got a pair of RCF TT08's and even though they are very powerful they are seriously coloured and wat too much bottom end.
I do want to go with IEM's but again my sound is not good in IEM's so I need to play with them a bit more -
BUT I don't want a great IEM sound thinking it sounds great out front when it's actually shit (and too quiet or too loud) as we don't have a sound man.
 
jlynnb1 said:
absolutely, i know it does. you can't get around it...unless your ear is perfectly on-axis with the sound source it's going to perceive the tone differently than it actually is
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Yep I think you're right on point with that. But fact is, ppl can manage on stage Cabs and send a signal FOH and get a great sound. I've noticed that it's usually guys running 2 sides to their chain in the preset with some very smart and intense EQing goin on, on both sides I.e output 1 FOH and out2 to their onstage cabs. And like I said before EQ work on both of them.
 
andyp13 said:
I got a pair of RCF TT08's and even though they are very powerful they are seriously coloured and wat too much bottom end.
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The TT08s are great. If you don't sound good on them (and seemingly through your hi-quality IEMs) you should work on your patches. Most PA systems (except for the very best d&B, L-Acoustics etc.) are of lesser quality. Maybe that's your FOH problem?
 
jlynnb1 said:
absolutely, i know it does. you can't get around it...unless your ear is perfectly on-axis with the sound source it's going to perceive the tone differently than it actually is
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Aside from the other post I just made about presets having two outputs with EQing, how does this phenomenon translate when I can listen to a CD any volume crank it up no matter where I stand relevant to the sound source it always sounds clear and amazing ?
 
Billbill said:
Aside from the other post I just made about presets having two outputs with EQing, how does this phenomenon translate when I can listen to a CD any volume crank it up no matter where I stand relevant to the sound source it always sounds clear and amazing ?
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A CD is a mixed, mastered "finished" work of art. Your guitar tone is but one element of finished work. That CD was engineered by professional(s) that aim for it to sound great on any system from any distance.
 
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I think this is like trying to catch a leprechaun. I try to to be most concerned with what the audience hears. This is why I now create my tones using our PA mains, and every chance I get, I grab a few minutes of solo warm up time at venues with big PA's to to hear what I sound like, and make small adjustments to that. I need a sound in my ear that is responsive and speaks to me... but I need the sound out front to be the best and to sit in the mix.

I have CLR's on stage, stacked up like a backline. I like how it sounds, but It's not like a 4x12... it has a lot less punch and girth, but it works. That said, I am using the CLRs less and less, and really am almost 100% on IEM sound now. I turn up my on stage volume for a few songs where I really want real live feedback (stuff like Billy Idol, or any 80's rock.) For pop or other music, they have no use for me. I have applied an eq curve to our board to make our FOH gear sound as close to the CLRs t as I can. ( the FOH sound is not as bright or clear on it's own, so I put in some eq notches in the low mids and boosts in the 2k range and high end on our board to match my tone more closely.)

The thought of trying to replicate a 4x12 in a PA speaker is like taking like a new modern hybrid car vs a 70's muscle car. Those are 2 different animals. They do different things. You get a sound from a PA, but that is a sound that should be part of a mix. Not a raw, fat, 4 Celestions in a birch cab in the room sound. You don't hear that on albums or at concerts either. No one except guitar players, engineers, bandmates and front row lunatics at a Ted Nugent concert have ever heard it.

FWIW... i tired and failed with IEMs for almost 2 years. I always pulled them out and went with on stage CLRs. I started with a low cost Carvin IEM setup. Then I bought some sure SE215 earbuds to "upgrade". It was garbage. Then I bought the Sennheiser G3 system, and it was better, but still unusable for me. Then I got some 64 Audio custom fit A3's to go with my Senni reciever/xmiter.... and wow... A whole new world. Now I literally have the best on stage clarity and feel I have ever had in my life. I am now fully IEM converted and would not go back. Now playing on stage is like practicing to a CD at home. Those earbuds made THAT MUCH difference. I'm performing better and having more fun than ever in my life on stage thanks to this black box and those earbuds. That is my experience. YMMV.
 
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