Stereo or mono for live playing?

F

Fatjac

Inspired
HI All,

As many will have seen I am attempting to increase my knowledge of the III in order to be able to use it live...

I started using a stereo set up with an SLA amp & 2 Orange 2x12 cabs. I have now refined that, possibly only for a temporary period, to just the one cab. Accordingly I would like any tips or advice as to whether people doing the same use stereo or mono effects. I have tried to read it up & realise that certain things like Ping Pong Delay will not work, are there others?

If I want to take a feed to the PA (using a cab block) can/ should that be stereo?

Just basically looking for any solutions to the conundrum as I plough through setting it up.

Cheers
 
If you're running one cab, and it's not a stereo cab, none of the stereo effects will have any separation. Is your SLA and Orange cab for stage monitoring or supplementing the PA feed or are you considering going direct without using the SLA/Orange combination?

As far as the cab block needing to be stereo, if your time based effects are after the cab block, it's not necessary.
 
JoKeR III said:
If you're running one cab, and it's not a stereo cab, none of the stereo effects will have any separation. Is your SLA and Orange cab for stage monitoring or supplementing the PA feed or are you considering going direct without using the SLA/Orange combination?

As far as the cab block needing to be stereo, if your time based effects are after the cab block, it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

The SLA & Orange are for what I would term "backline".

The PA is just because I would like to "future proof" the presets. i.e. get ahead & have them ready for larger venues supplementing the backline.

On other threads people have indicated that with using Outputs 1 & 2 it is best to put the cab at the nd of the chain for one output & take a feed for the SLA from before the cab block.
 
Fatjac said:
HI All,

As many will have seen I am attempting to increase my knowledge of the III in order to be able to use it live...

I started using a stereo set up with an SLA amp & 2 Orange 2x12 cabs. I have now refined that, possibly only for a temporary period, to just the one cab. Accordingly I would like any tips or advice as to whether people doing the same use stereo or mono effects. I have tried to read it up & realise that certain things like Ping Pong Delay will not work, are there others?

If I want to take a feed to the PA (using a cab block) can/ should that be stereo?

Just basically looking for any solutions to the conundrum as I plough through setting it up.

Cheers
Click to expand...
As an FOH guy as well as playing guitar and bass, this is an old, old topic.
FWIW - my $0.02.
First.. Who are you doing this for? You or the audience? If NOT the audience then the mono/stereo question is moot.
If it's for your audience, consider this.
There is a narrow triangle between FOH and the speakers (array, stack, etc.) where stereo effects can be appreciated and HEARD. In most other areas the stereo effect is wasted because people can't hear them. If you have a ping-pong delay going, those sitting outside that triangle will lose the sound as it moves L to R and back across the space. This negatively impacts the punters overall audio experience. Same negative impact that a dialed amp has on stage when those up front get blasted by it - and it makes no difference whether that is mono or stereo cabs.
Because of this, I always run mono.
Simple to mix, everyone in the audience hears the same thing no matter where in the room and there is no unexpected collateral damage. Keep it simple.
Most of the audience can't tell the difference anyway.
YMMV
 
That configuration seems to be the best option for using amp/cab and sending a signal to FOH. However, with the cab block after the time based effects, the stereo image is lost, even if panning cabs hard left/right.

First, allow me clarify "stereo": using both the L and R outs from the Axe III as opposed to running L out only. I don't try to attain a wide stereo image, keeping the stereo spread less than 50% on effects. That's where I'm in agreement with s0c9 - it's very difficult for the stereo image to translate or sound as wide as in a controlled environment like your studio/practice space and can lead to undesirable issues they described. However, running stereo - L and R outs - simply sounds better than L only in the venues I play, both to me and our sound engineers.
 
@s0c9, what are your thoughts/experiences on stereo chorus running through FOH?

We primarily play small pubs, and I run FOH from the stage. My guitar (both L and R outputs) is running direct to FOH and I only hear my guitar (as well as the rest of the FOH mix) in mono through a powered wedge in front of me. (And whatever I pick up from the stage right FOH speaker, a QSC K12 on a stand.) The FOH is running in stereo but with everything panned to the middle except my guitar, which is panned hard L and R. Although I don't use stereo delay effects like ping-pong, I do get the sense that stereo chorus (used sparingly on only a few songs) really fattens up the guitar sound in places where it's appropriate. At bigger venues or outdoors, I don't pan the guitar channels, but instead run them down the center.

Your thoughts?
 
Don't have a lot to add, other than that mono makes my life so much easier. Running stereo isn't a hassle as such, but it's more effort and requires more gear to haul around, more space on stage, more channels on the mixing desk etc. Also, unless your stereo effects are panned hard left/right, phase cancellation might be an issue. Many bands and engineers like to pan the guitar more to one side and the other guitar player/keyboard to the other side, which might be a problem with stereo effects.

Plus, my bandmates would probably look at me really funny if I asked for another channel on our already full mixing desk in our live setup.
 
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s0c9 said:
As an FOH guy as well as playing guitar and bass, this is an old, old topic.
FWIW - my $0.02.
First.. Who are you doing this for? You or the audience? If NOT the audience then the mono/stereo question is moot.
If it's for your audience, consider this.
There is a narrow triangle between FOH and the speakers (array, stack, etc.) where stereo effects can be appreciated and HEARD. In most other areas the stereo effect is wasted because people can't hear them. If you have a ping-pong delay going, those sitting outside that triangle will lose the sound as it moves L to R and back across the space. This negatively impacts the punters overall audio experience. Same negative impact that a dialed amp has on stage when those up front get blasted by it - and it makes no difference whether that is mono or stereo cabs.
Because of this, I always run mono.
Simple to mix, everyone in the audience hears the same thing no matter where in the room and there is no unexpected collateral damage. Keep it simple.
Most of the audience can't tell the difference anyway.
YMMV
Click to expand...

Thanks, great post, some good points.
 
JoKeR III said:
That configuration seems to be the best option for using amp/cab and sending a signal to FOH. However, with the cab block after the time based effects, the stereo image is lost, even if panning cabs hard left/right.

First, allow me clarify "stereo": using both the L and R outs from the Axe III as opposed to running L out only. I don't try to attain a wide stereo image, keeping the stereo spread less than 50% on effects. That's where I'm in agreement with s0c9 - it's very difficult for the stereo image to translate or sound as wide as in a controlled environment like your studio/practice space and can lead to undesirable issues they described. However, running stereo - L and R outs - simply sounds better than L only in the venues I play, both to me and our sound engineers.
Click to expand...

Also interesting. So running stereo with less spread sounds better than mono.
 
TG3K said:
@s0c9, what are your thoughts/experiences on stereo chorus running through FOH?

We primarily play small pubs, and I run FOH from the stage. My guitar (both L and R outputs) is running direct to FOH and I only hear my guitar (as well as the rest of the FOH mix) in mono through a powered wedge in front of me. (And whatever I pick up from the stage right FOH speaker, a QSC K12 on a stand.) The FOH is running in stereo but with everything panned to the middle except my guitar, which is panned hard L and R. Although I don't use stereo delay effects like ping-pong, I do get the sense that stereo chorus (used sparingly on only a few songs) really fattens up the guitar sound in places where it's appropriate. At bigger venues or outdoors, I don't pan the guitar channels, but instead run them down the center.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Another vote for stereo then? But only with chorus?
 
guitarnerdswe said:
Don't have a lot to add, other than that mono makes my life so much easier. Running stereo isn't a hassle as such, but it's more effort and requires more gear to haul around, more space on stag, more channels on the mixing desk etc. Also, unless your stereo effects are panned hard left/right, phase cancellation might be an issue. Many bands and engineers like to pan the guitar more to one side and the other guitar player/keyboard to the other side, which might be a problem with stereo effects.

Plus, my bandmates would probably look at me really funny if I asked for another channel on our already full mixing desk in our live setup.
Click to expand...

I can see that now, makes sense to me!
 
Ok so for those that advocate running in mono how best to achieve that? Should I select mono only affects or is it ok to use stereo and effectively mix down to mono by putting the cab at the end of the chain? Or some other way? My objective is to create presets from the outset with the best method that I can for the long term.
 
In my primary band, I'm the only guitar player. I've been running stereo since the late 90's. I run a very subtle stereo though. Nothing ping-ponging and flying back and forth, just subtle choruses and delays to fatten up the guitar a little (most of those years, we were a 3-piece band). I've run direct since the late 90's as well. In small to medium venues, the little bit of stereo I run really isn't much different than if you had two guitar players on opposite sides of the stage, running live cabs. If you're in the audience, you're going to hear more of the guitar that's closest to you. I've run my fair share of FOH as well. The key is moderation. If you're going to run stereo, you need to make sure you have any phasing issues taken care of, and then do just what you need to in order to accomplish your goal. Approach it from a "less is more" standpoint, not a "what else will my DSP horsepower let me add" standpoint. Just because it sounds good in your living room/bedroom/practice space/etc., doesn't mean it's going to sit well in a live mix. The other thing is, if your FOH systems vary from gig to gig, ya better make sure they're running stereo. My suggestion would be to have two sets of patches....One stereo, one mono. You're ready for whatever gig happens to be in front of you. For the mono patches, I would run the entire signal chain mono, versus summing a stereo chain to mono at the end.
 
GaryB said:
In my primary band, I'm the only guitar player. I've been running stereo since the late 90's. I run a very subtle stereo though. Nothing ping-ponging and flying back and forth, just subtle choruses and delays to fatten up the guitar a little (most of those years, we were a 3-piece band). I've run direct since the late 90's as well. In small to medium venues, the little bit of stereo I run really isn't much different than if you had two guitar players on opposite sides of the stage, running live cabs. If you're in the audience, you're going to hear more of the guitar that's closest to you. I've run my fair share of FOH as well. The key is moderation. If you're going to run stereo, you need to make sure you have any phasing issues taken care of, and then do just what you need to in order to accomplish your goal. Approach it from a "less is more" standpoint, not a "what else will my DSP horsepower let me add" standpoint. Just because it sounds good in your living room/bedroom/practice space/etc., doesn't mean it's going to sit well in a live mix. The other thing is, if your FOH systems vary from gig to gig, ya better make sure they're running stereo. My suggestion would be to have two sets of patches....One stereo, one mono. You're ready for whatever gig happens to be in front of you. For the mono patches, I would run the entire signal chain mono, versus summing a stereo chain to mono at the end.
Click to expand...

More excellent advice & food for thought. Thanks.
 
Fatjac said:
Also interesting. So running stereo with less spread sounds better than mono.
Click to expand...
Presuming the FOH engineer is treating it like a stereo instrument; panning at least 25% left/right, it does.

As far as stereo effects in a mono signal, I use stereo delays to get a dual delay effect. Setting the Spread (width) at 0 (although setting this to around either -30 or +30 can achieve some interesting delay mixes/repeats) and the L/R Ratio at either 75% or 68% creates a great dual delay for dotted eighth feel or lead delay type tones.
 
JoKeR III said:
Presuming the FOH engineer is treating it like a stereo instrument; panning at least 25% left/right, it does.

As far as stereo effects in a mono signal, I use stereo delays to get a dual delay effect. Setting the Spread (width) at 0 (although setting this to around either -30 or +30 can achieve some interesting delay mixes/repeats) and the L/R Ratio at either 75% or 68% creates a great dual delay for dotted eighth feel or lead delay type tones.
Click to expand...

I shall try these settings! You know I'm glad that I asked my original question. As with everything Axe Fx related there is SO much more than meets the eye, so much hidden depth...I seriously wonder if I will ever get to grips with this box of tricks!
 
TG3K said:
@s0c9, what are your thoughts/experiences on stereo chorus running through FOH?

We primarily play small pubs, and I run FOH from the stage. My guitar (both L and R outputs) is running direct to FOH and I only hear my guitar (as well as the rest of the FOH mix) in mono through a powered wedge in front of me. (And whatever I pick up from the stage right FOH speaker, a QSC K12 on a stand.) The FOH is running in stereo but with everything panned to the middle except my guitar, which is panned hard L and R. Although I don't use stereo delay effects like ping-pong, I do get the sense that stereo chorus (used sparingly on only a few songs) really fattens up the guitar sound in places where it's appropriate. At bigger venues or outdoors, I don't pan the guitar channels, but instead run them down the center.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
If you are running back-line only, I'd say fine.
Other than that, you'd need to check with FOH, as most aren't expecting TWO inputs from the guitar :)
That said, unless they PAN those 2 inputs hard L + R you'll only get a partial effect. Some FOH folks (like me) will happily oblige if you ASK! Others will go thru the motions and leave both channels centered, thwarting your attempt at stereo guitar.
That's ANOTHER reason (that I did not list) for sticking with mono feeds. My bass gigs are always mono.
Keep in mind that once that signal goes to FOH, you have ZERO control over it and have to trust that the "guy on the board" is doing his job. Most try.. but some are jaded, or DJ's pushing faders and don't care as long as the overall mix doesn't get them fired. If you trust your FOH guy to do the right thing.. go for it!
My $0.02
 
our band uses in ears and we find we get a really nice mix if one guitar runs in stereo with a bit of stereo widening on the signal chain, and one runs in mono up the middle. helps to create a nice stereo field for our ear mixes.

FOH mono is fine - i've never met a sound guy that hasn't rolled his eyes when you say you have the option to give him stereo.
 
I use stereo for both FOH and my IEMS on stage. I have all my stereo effects panned hard right and left on the Axe FX and then depending on the venue have sound pull them in on the FOH desk by panning the left and right channels on the desk towards 12 O'clock to suit the venue.

Dunno if that helps :)
 
s0c9 said:
If you are running back-line only, I'd say fine.
Other than that, you'd need to check with FOH, as most aren't expecting TWO inputs from the guitar :)
That said, unless they PAN those 2 inputs hard L + R you'll only get a partial effect. Some FOH folks (like me) will happily oblige if you ASK! Others will go thru the motions and leave both channels centered, thwarting your attempt at stereo guitar.
That's ANOTHER reason (that I did not list) for sticking with mono feeds. My bass gigs are always mono.
Keep in mind that once that signal goes to FOH, you have ZERO control over it and have to trust that the "guy on the board" is doing his job. Most try.. but some are jaded, or DJ's pushing faders and don't care as long as the overall mix doesn't get them fired. If you trust your FOH guy to do the right thing.. go for it!
My $0.02
Click to expand...

I run no backline...only run to FOH, which in turn feeds my monitor (which is the FOH mix). And I don't need to check with the guy who's running the FOH board, because that's me. I run dual inputs into the mixer. I do the same with my Roland guitar synth.

Our bass player has the only amp on stage, and we only add a little of his feed (mono, from the amp's direct out) to the FOH mix, just to add a little definition. (No subs on the FOH system.) The other guitar is an acoustic, and his Fishman preamp goes direct mono into FOH as well. Also, the only mic on the drums is typically on the kick drum, and it just goes to a K10 pointed at the wall behind the drummer, for a little extra thump. (We're a low-volume pub band most of the time. No need for full sound reinforcement.)
 
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