Stage Sound Options

[Cam Heiliger]

I’m considering a few different options for live stage sound and I wanted to get some feedback from those who have tried these options before I make a final decision.

I need a stage volume solution for playing with my band. We run our own sound on almost all of our gigs with our own PA setup. I am the rhythm guitar player and lead singer. Our lead guitar player uses an AX8 so we both currently run through the board to FOH. Until recently we’ve both run the FOH mix to powered monitors but I have since switched to IEMs to better hear my vocals live. As a result I’m having trouble getting a good “live” guitar sound on stage for my FM3 - our lead player is more present in the mix and sounds excellent through my IEMs but my quieter tone gets a bit lost. My IEMs are “semi-open” so I can still hear things on stage including our bass player who has a lot of stage volume so he’s less present in the FOH “mix” but I hear him well and so does the audience. I’d like to add one of the following stage options to give myself more stage volume and feel without having to fight our lead player in the mix:

1. FRFR behind me projecting only my guitar sound - looking at something in the $700-1000 range to duplicate my FOH tone on stage turned up to give me more volume and feel.

2. SS Power Amp & Guitar Cab - Likely a Duncan power stage into a large 1x12 cab. Run the cab block at the end of the chain and split the PA through Out2 right before the cab block that sends the IR to FOH. Match tone as well as I can with effects going to both FOH and my cab.

3. Run a pseudo wet/dry setup with a Marshall DSL40CR on stage un-miced and my normal FM3 sounds to FOH. Split the signal path basically right after In1 and run the Marshall dry from Out2 with the FM3 “wet” in the mix (with modulations and time based effects) but control the Marshall channels via midi with my FC6 so that I’m only hitting a single button per sound - clean amp model in the FM3 with clean Marshall channel, crunchy amp model in the FM3 with crunch channel on the Marshall, etc. Match the clean/crunch/gain sounds on the amp to the corresponding sounds in the FOH mix as best I can do that I get the experience on stage while also projecting a good full mix to the audience. I am intrigued by this option because I’d also have a built in backup but I’m concerned with phasing issues and/or latency that might result.

Would certainly appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks so much!

 

[unix-guy]

Why not just boost your guitar in your IEM mix? Or do you not have a dedicated IEM mix?

 

[pauly]

Hi Cam,

Have you tried running the IEM's stereo, and panning the instruments to reflect your positions on stage? This could help separate the two guitars, and allow yo to hear yourself a bit better. If you are using an X32, their personal monitoring units are very good value too.

Thanks
Pauly

I’m considering a few different options for live stage sound and I wanted to get some feedback from those who have tried these options before I make a final decision.

I need a stage volume solution for playing with my band. We run our own sound on almost all of our gigs with our own PA setup. I am the rhythm guitar player and lead singer. Our lead guitar player uses an AX8 so we both currently run through the board to FOH. Until recently we’ve both run the FOH mix to powered monitors but I have since switched to IEMs to better hear my vocals live. As a result I’m having trouble getting a good “live” guitar sound on stage for my FM3 - our lead player is more present in the mix and sounds excellent through my IEMs but my quieter tone gets a bit lost. My IEMs are “semi-open” so I can still hear things on stage including our bass player who has a lot of stage volume so he’s less present in the FOH “mix” but I hear him well and so does the audience. I’d like to add one of the following stage options to give myself more stage volume and feel without having to fight our lead player in the mix:

1. FRFR behind me projecting only my guitar sound - looking at something in the $700-1000 range to duplicate my FOH tone on stage turned up to give me more volume and feel.

2. SS Power Amp & Guitar Cab - Likely a Duncan power stage into a large 1x12 cab. Run the cab block at the end of the chain and split the PA through Out2 right before the cab block that sends the IR to FOH. Match tone as well as I can with effects going to both FOH and my cab.

3. Run a pseudo wet/dry setup with a Marshall DSL40CR on stage un-miced and my normal FM3 sounds to FOH. Split the signal path basically right after In1 and run the Marshall dry from Out2 with the FM3 “wet” in the mix (with modulations and time based effects) but control the Marshall channels via midi with my FC6 so that I’m only hitting a single button per sound - clean amp model in the FM3 with clean Marshall channel, crunchy amp model in the FM3 with crunch channel on the Marshall, etc. Match the clean/crunch/gain sounds on the amp to the corresponding sounds in the FOH mix as best I can do that I get the experience on stage while also projecting a good full mix to the audience. I am intrigued by this option because I’d also have a built in backup but I’m concerned with phasing issues and/or latency that might result.

Would certainly appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks so much!

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Why not just boost your guitar in your IEM mix? Or do you not have a dedicated IEM mix?

Fair question. I do have a dedicated mix, but because I’m used to having my guitar coming out of a speaker in front of me, I’m missing some feel as well as volume. Essentially I like my guitar sound better out of a live floor monitor but I need the IEM more to focus on vocals and eliminate some feedback we were getting from my monitor as well.

 

[unix-guy]

Fair question. I do have a dedicated mix, but because I’m used to having my guitar coming out of a speaker in front of me, I’m missing some feel as well as volume. Essentially I like my guitar sound better out of a live floor monitor but I need the IEM more to focus on vocals and eliminate some feedback we were getting from my monitor as well.

Then I'd recommend an FRFR wedge in front facing you.

The EV PXM 12-MP is pretty nice and it's in your price range.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Have you tried running the IEM's stereo, and panning the instruments to reflect your positions on stage? This could help separate the two guitars, and allow yo to hear yourself a bit better. If you are using an X32, their personal monitoring units are very good value too.

Thanks
Pauly

I don’t have the ability to pan the IEM mix separate from FOH - I’m using a solo wireless IEM system into one of the AUX channels of our mixer for monitoring. I want to keep our lead player as central as possible in the mix as we both play in mono.

 

[Rex]

Essentially I like my guitar sound better out of a live floor monitor but I need the IEM more to focus on vocals and eliminate some feedback we were getting from my monitor as well.

Then dial in your IEM mix to focus on vocals. I'm not seeing the problem.

 

[fractalz]

Fair question. I do have a dedicated mix, but because I’m used to having my guitar coming out of a speaker in front of me, I’m missing some feel as well as volume. Essentially I like my guitar sound better out of a live floor monitor but I need the IEM more to focus on vocals and eliminate some feedback we were getting from my monitor as well.

Vocal or guitar feedback?

 

[Rex]

Vocal or guitar feedback?

Vocal.

 

[aflynt]

Then I'd recommend an FRFR wedge in front facing you.

The EV PXM 12-MP is pretty nice and it's in your price range.

+1 - Just plug the monitor into your FM3 and stick it in front of you. It’ll enhance the sound of your guitar from your IEM feed while interfering less with the FOH mix. That’s precisely what I’m doing currently with that exact same EV PXM 12-MP monitor. You’ll likely need a lot less guitar than vocals in your IEM feed though.

-Aaron

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Then dial in your IEM mix to focus on vocals. I'm not seeing the problem.

In a perfect world I was trying to eliminate the need for a floor monitor at all by switching to IEMs. But I’ve found I’ve sacrificed my guitar volume and feel in the process. So, I’m looking for a solution that will provide me with the best sound option on stage that may also upgrade the audience experience without sacrificing my #1 need for vocal clarity and volume in my personal IEM mix.

 

[DJD100]

I don't use stage monitors or guitar cabs anymore, and my DI'd guitar sounds great in the IEM's (FM3 with tube preamp in the loop), and the keys for me are properly fitted IEM's and IEM send EQ.

The Comply Memory Foam IEM tips work well IME, with in my case KZ AS10's and a little EQ/Limiter for protection.

 

[Rex]

In a perfect world I was trying to eliminate the need for a floor monitor at all by switching to IEMs. But I’ve found I’ve sacrificed my guitar volume and feel in the process. So, I’m looking for a solution that will provide me with the best sound option on stage that may also upgrade the audience experience without sacrificing my #1 need for vocal clarity and volume in my personal IEM mix.

A noble cause. As a guitarist, the main drawback to a silent stage is the loss of feel and sustain. Here's how I'd approach it:

- The floor monitor is for you and your guitar only. So feed it your guitar only. Point it at you, and away from the audience. Crank it up only as much as you need to get the feel and sustain you want.

- Now put in your IEMS. Adjust the mix until you hear what you need to hear. And you're done.

- If you prefer a power amp and cabs, then do that instead of the wedge — but only if that's what you need to be comfortable. Other than that, avoid adding any more monitors, speakers, or other sources of sound. They will only complicate the mix, for both you and your audience.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Sounds like the FRFR is the way to go. The idea of having another amp sounds really cool in theory, but in my experience keeping it simple (stupid) generally winds up being the best solution. I have looked at the PXM-12MP and they seem great. Another benefit is that the rest of our PA setup are EV speakers as well (Evolve 30M & 50 column speakers) so there would be some consistency there. Has anyone tried the Yamaha DHR12M? It is a bit cheaper and seems to have similar features. Thanks so much for the feedback, all. I certainly appreciate it.

 

[guitarno]

I can't speak to using IEM's but I am in a similar situation. We run direct into the FOH for shows and I have been using a Yamaha DXR10 as a floor wedge or pole mounted for my guitar signal only, to replace some of the missing volume & feel from not using a traditional guitar amp on stage. I recently bought 2 EV PXM-12MP wedge monitors, but I just got them and haven't used them at a show yet. I am hoping they are even better than the DXR10's for this use case, being coaxial speakers.
Whatever you use though, I think having some kind of foldback monitor to augment what you hear from the FOH feed is very helpful.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Found a used PXM-12MP and got it on order. Looking forward integrating it into the setup. Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[la szum]

If you ever put it on a stand at ear level I am gonna disown you!!

 

[Xcdchdchjjf]

I don't use stage monitors or guitar cabs anymore, and my DI'd guitar sounds great in the IEM's (FM3 with tube preamp in the loop), and the keys for me are properly fitted IEM's and IEM send EQ.

The Comply Memory Foam IEM tips work well IME, with in my case KZ AS10's and a little EQ/Limiter for protection.

What tube preamp

 

[DJD100]

What tube preamp

Many different tube preamps depending on the need, out of a collection consisting of the AS JCM 800 (currently on my FM3 pedalboard), Rocktron Plexi (currently in my Axe II rack), and living in the studios are a Kittyhawk Quattro, ADA MP-1 Channel, plus custom MTS versions of Marshall Super Lead/Friedman BE, HiWatt DR-103, Orange OR-120, Dumble Skyliner #134, Vox AC30 TB, and Fender Deluxe.

I use my Axe II and FM3 amp blocks for awesome tube power amp sims with all of the above, as well as the FM3's Cygnus amp models extensively as well.

 

[musicianof1]

I’m looking into the Line 6 Power Cab Plus for this. I also use inears but definitely prefer to have some stage volume as well As my inears are not a custom seal.