Speaker drive and compression - what value is closest to the real thing?

[Tito83]

Default value for current firmware is 0 and 1 for the Deluxe Reverb model. As I understand that's ideal if you're running a real cab, but if I want to use an IR and have it as close to the real thing as possible, what the value should be?

 

[USMC_Trev]

The defaults especially for combo amps represent the actual amp used to create the model with the default factory IR in the factory preset. If you change the cab you need to play with the setting.

Don’t overthink, just crank that setting around until you find what you like. Or don’t and accept the truth that no two real amps are going to sound exactly alike anyway so try not to worry about it too much.

Nothing in any default Fractal preset is set to function with real live cabs.

 

[mr_fender]

I believe Cliff said the new default for Speaker Drive is 2.0. The existing factory presets still have the old default of 0 for Speaker Drive from the previous algorithm. When set to 0 it has no effect. When you reset the amp block or change amp types, 2.0 is the value that comes up.

Edit: that's for the new Axe III FW 20. FM3 and FM9 still default to 0 I believe.

 

[Tito83]

The defaults especially for combo amps represent the actual amp used to create the model with the default factory IR in the factory preset. If you change the cab you need to play with the setting.

Don’t overthink, just crank that setting around until you find what you like. Or don’t and accept the truth that no two real amps are going to sound exactly alike anyway so try not to worry about it too much.

Nothing in any default Fractal preset is set to function with real live cabs.

Don't believe it's true. I read on the manul or on the wiki page that speaker drive at zero means it's turned off, so that would mean the default value adds no speaker breakup even if the amp is cranked. That doesn't seem the way the real amp works.

Not a fan of this approach, I'd rather just start as close as possible to the real thing.

I believe Cliff said the new default for Speaker Drive is 2.0. The existing factory presets still have the old default of 0 for Speaker Drive from the previous algorithm.

I saw the new firmware for the Axe III, but I remember reading somewhere the default for the Fm3 was also 2, but reseting the amp block it goes to zero. I find it weird because Cliff himself says he usually uses higher values. Following his recommended values I found that it greatly improved the feel specially for clean stuff. Much much better actually. I think those parameters are important and I'd just like to know what the value should be for a Deluxe Reverb or a Plexi, just to get a good starting point.

 

[mr_fender]

Oh sorry, I forgot this is the FM3 forum. Yeah the default for the FM3 and FM9 should still be zero. The new default of 2.0 is for the III.

Whatever the default value might be, ultimately you've got to trust your ears. If it sounds good, it is good. It's always going to depend on which speaker you're using and how hard you are actually driving that speaker. A fully cranked 100 watt Plexi into a 4x12 loaded with 25 watt Greenbacks is going to beat the hell out of those speakers. Inversely, a fully cranked 22 watt deluxe reverb driving a 300 watt EV or JBL speaker , though still loud as hell, is barely going to make the speaker break a sweat.

 

[Tonedeaf]

I like turning the speaker drive up just a bit like 0.25, except for high wattage speakers which stays at 0.0

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Whatever the default value might be, ultimately you've got to trust your ears. If it sounds good, it is good. It's always going to depend on which speaker you're using and how hard you are actually driving that speaker. A fully cranked 100 watt Plexi into a 4x12 loaded with 25 watt Greenbacks is going to beat the hell out of those speakers. Inversely, a fully cranked 22 watt deluxe reverb driving a 300 watt EV or JBL speaker , though still loud as hell, is barely going to make the speaker break a sweat.

That’s how I treat it.

My “deluxe” amp preset is based on a 22 watt amp and the speaker is capable of handling 65 watts so there’s no way it’s going to sound like the speaker is flexing or distorting, so I keep the setting really low. Some of my other presets are supposed to be punishing the speakers, so I set it higher for them.

It’s very much a setting to use your ears, and maybe a bit of creative logic. A small amp running clean puts out a lot less power than a big one running at full power. If the first had a 4x12 cab connected then I’d reduce or turn off the setting, and conversely I’d turn it way up if I had a single 4x5 speaker on a cranked 100 watt.

 

[Tito83]

I have used my ears and adjusted it, but I think it would be beneficial to start from the closest value to the real amp. There's a lot of overlap among all the parameters available, narrowing down my options to achieve the tone I want is helpful. I think the speaker breakup should be a given and set by default on an amp like this. Maybe not as default on the actual block, like you pointed out, different speakers will break up differently, so make available a preset were things are set acurately for the chosen speaker on that preset. That would be very useful.

 

[USMC_Trev]

I think it would be beneficial to start from the closest value to the real amp.

If you line up 10 Deluxe Reverbs and take measurements that correlate to these parameters you're going to get 10 different readings. That's what we're all trying to tell you. The default number is the best representation of an average amp. In the genetics world we would call this the consensus value. This is the reason you're going to find again and again you'll be told by the good folks here to just tweak it to the way you like it or to the specific sound you're going for. Remember that these two parameters you're asking about are only two that affect and are affected by dozens of others. Thus you'll see people saying "I like this" or I just leave it at xxx".

The only way to find that is to go through as many cab IR's as you can stand and move those dials.

The shortest version of all of this is There Is No Single Answer To Your Question.

Or the answer has been given (it's in the default of the factory preset) and you're resisting that because it's too simplistic. Sometimes it is just that easy.

 

[Tito83]

If you line up 10 Deluxe Reverbs and take measurements that correlate to these parameters you're going to get 10 different readings. That's what we're all trying to tell you. The default number is the best representation of an average amp. In the genetics world we would call this the consensus value. This is the reason you're going to find again and again you'll be told by the good folks here to just tweak it to the way you like it or to the specific sound you're going for. Remember that these two parameters you're asking about are only two that affect and are affected by dozens of others. Thus you'll see people saying "I like this" or I just leave it at xxx".

The only way to find that is to go through as many cab IR's as you can stand and move those dials.

The shortest version of all of this is There Is No Single Answer To Your Question.

Or the answer has been given (it's in the default of the factory preset) and you're resisting that because it's too simplistic. Sometimes it is just that easy.

The speaker drive is the speaker breakup when the amp gets loud. Correct? I don't think there's a single Deluxe Reverb out there that will have zero speaker breakup at max volume. How could zero be the consensus value?

Like you said, every amp is different, that's very much true. With that the only possible alternative is to each model correspond to a single real amp, given every one is different. I don't see the issue there.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that we have the ability to tweek such things, but the default should reflect the real amp behavior.

 

[sprint]

I also tend to think that often, a bit too much is made here of how much multiple instances of the same real amp vary due to electronics tolerances etc, as a reason to relegate expected values (ie defaults) for various modelling parameters totally to "just use your ears". The logic part is still important but, in this case, tough to know how much a speaker drives in various scenarios - almost like I'd just want it to be on/off (or maybe an "auto" setting) and have the modelling figure out the specific tolerance averaged value based on other more readily known information I could input like speaker type, cab type, ...

 

[Will Chen]

The speaker drive is the speaker breakup when the amp gets loud. Correct? I don't think there's a single Deluxe Reverb out there that will have zero speaker breakup at max volume. How could zero be the consensus value?

Yes. However, how many are playing a Deluxe a max volume? I'd suggest dialing in with your ear, not sure there is a 100% "accurate" setting here as you can crank it up but keep the amp clean and it sounds like a speaker starting to struggle which wouldn't happen with a clean Deluxe and it's stock speaker.

 

[Tito83]

Yes. However, how many are playing a Deluxe a max volume? I'd suggest dialing in with your ear, not sure there is a 100% "accurate" setting here as you can crank it up but keep the amp clean and it sounds like a speaker starting to struggle which wouldn't happen with a clean Deluxe and it's stock speaker.

You don't need to crank it to feel the speaker breakup, it was only an example.

You're not sure there's a 100% accurate setting, I'm not saying there's one either.

Like @sprint said, I wish the parameter would work automatically for a given speaker type. If not automatically, maybe a comprehensive list of settings for common speaker, wattages, values for simulating speaker age/use maybe, etc.

"Use your ears", sure, always great advice, but when there are over a hundrer parameters on a simple amp, a lot of them overlaping, it's very hard to tell if the model (or even the modeling) is not for me or if maybe I need more time to tweak.

I don't get why it's so contentions a request for the amp model to behave as the real amp by default - or at least some good pointers from the designers on parameters that are important but can't be automated.

 

[Will Chen]

You don't need to crank it to feel the speaker breakup, it was only an example.

You're not sure there's a 100% accurate setting, I'm not saying there's one either.

Like @sprint said, I wish the parameter would work automatically for a given speaker type. If not automatically, maybe a comprehensive list of settings for common speaker, wattages, values for simulating speaker age/use maybe, etc.

"Use your ears", sure, always great advice, but when there are over a hundrer parameters on a simple amp, a lot of them overlaping, it's very hard to tell if the model (or even the modeling) is not for me or if maybe I need more time to tweak.

I don't get why it's so contentions a request for the amp model to behave as the real amp by default - or at least some good pointers from the designers on parameters that are important but can't be automated.

Well, honestly my suggestion is to ignore it entirely. Impossible for it to be automatic as while part of the amp block this is really based on the speaker, always feels like the Speaker page should be part of the Cab block than the Amp block. If it were automatic how does that work if one loads an IR of a high wattage speaker, how would the amp model know to not distort the speaker? How could it know the wattage of a speaker in a 3rd party IR?

I know...lot's of parameters but if one wants to really investigate the sound of cranked single speaker low wattage amps, that's what Speaker Drive is for IMHO. Otherwise, seems a non issue...

EDIT: Specifically to "You don't need to crank it to feel the speaker breakup, it was only an example." I can't remember who said it, it was an expert though, but they suggested a speaker operating within it's nominal range will not distort. In other words, this would indeed need to be cranked in order to distort a speaker.

 

[Tito83]

Well, honestly my suggestion is to ignore it entirely. Impossible for it to be automatic as while part of the amp block this is really based on the speaker, always feels like the Speaker page should be part of the Cab block than the Amp block. If it were automatic how does that work if one loads an IR of a high wattage speaker, how would the amp model know to not distort the speaker? How could it know the wattage of a speaker in a 3rd party IR?

I know...lot's of parameters but if one wants to really investigate the sound of cranked single speaker low wattage amps, that's what Speaker Drive is for IMHO. Otherwise, seems a non issue...

EDIT: Specifically to "You don't need to crank it to feel the speaker breakup, it was only an example." I can't remember who said it, it was an expert though, but they suggested a speaker operating within it's nominal range will not distort. In other words, this would indeed need to be cranked in order to distort a speaker.

It could work just like the impedance curve for different speakers. Instead of just loading the impedance curve it would also set all the other parameters. Multiple profiles are created and you load the one that's exactly like or closest to the one on the IR you're using.

I don't know how the algorithm works for the speaker drive or compression or how the expert defines distortion, but if the speaker isn't 100% efficient, which nothing really is, I think technically there's some type of distortion going on.

 

[mr_fender]

The Deluxe Reverb is roughly a 22 watt amp. The stock speaker in many of the original Blackface Deluxe Reverbs was the Oxford 12K5-6. It's a pretty low wattage speaker (about 25 watts I think), so the Deluxe would have easily been able to push it into at least mild breakup and strong breakup when really cranked. The Jensen speakers used in the reissues are actually much higher quality speakers, with a much higher output rating and much larger magnet. They definitely have much better low frequency performance. The Oxfords in contrast were loose and weak on the low end and have a reputation for farting out when pushed hard, which isn't tough to do considering their low wattage and sensitivity. Don't forget that an amp's wattage rating is at clean output. Once you drive the power amp into overdrive you could be putting out a fair bit more than the rated output wattage.

The amp the Deluxe Reverb models are based on appears to be Cliff's original '65 deluxe reverb, but I don't know which speaker his has in it. It does not specify that in the Wiki.

 

[sprint]

capturing a more full profile of a cab (speaker type, cab type, wattage, age ...) would seem to enable the possibility of connecting more modelling dots between amp and cab + with increased accuracy - not just for possible automation of parms like speaker drive, but also for speaker impedance curve setting which is currently set based on more generalized profiles unless one happens to have the specifics of a particular IR or real cab+speaker (hence my call in other threads to IR providers (not that I have any influence lol) to provide more speaker/cab spec info with their IR offerings as this could maybe, if captured somehow into modeller metadata, provide a basis to extend more automated modelling further into amp/cab interaction land).

 

[Will Chen]

It could work just like the impedance curve for different speakers. Instead of just loading the impedance curve it would also set all the other parameters. Multiple profiles are created and you load the one that's exactly like or closest to the one on the IR you're using.

I don't know how the algorithm works for the speaker drive or compression or how the expert defines distortion, but if the speaker isn't 100% efficient, which nothing really is, I think technically there's some type of distortion going on.

So you're saying include a preset selection for speaker types? That could kinda work, but the issue here is that in reality speaker drive would be a function of the amp's volume, the speaker's individual power handling, and the number of speakers. Within any modeler the amp model volume is emulated to some degree but without some significant meta data regarding the IR loaded, how could a modeling device understand the virtual power handling of the IR?

To the later...yes, no speaker is perfectly efficient that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you messed around with the parameter at all? Seriously, I think it's the special sauce at higher settings for those who are looking for the sound of a speaker being pushed past it's limits. But at more subtle settings it seems to add another layer of subtle compression which one may or may not like. I suggest trying it and seeing if it's something you want to use and worry a little less about whether it's 100% "authentic" as I can't see how a single setting here would be accurate in all settings.

 

[hobbes1]

I don't get why it's so contentions a request for the amp model to behave as the real amp by default - or at least some good pointers from the designers on parameters that are important but can't be automated.

LOL. Seriously? You are a decorated veteran of the Input Impedance Wars and you are surprised that people want to argue down a good idea? C'mon!

 

[sprint]

Input Impendance Wars

u mean "impedance"? - I mustv missed that one - sounds intriguing though