Speaker compression and drive into a real speaker??

J

JTOsburn

New Member
I’ve got a question/issue.
edited because I was frustrated and sounding rude
(I’m not trying to be rude, I promise!)

I’m running my FM3 into a power amp/real cab.

Before you ask, YES I KNOW TO DISABLE CABINET SIMULATION 🤣

Still though, it sounds muffled and weird. As I’ve learned how to tweak the device I’ve found the output EQ of the amps and different other settings I can tweak to get closer to the sound of a real amp, BUT something has been bugging me.

Even if you bypass cabinet simulation in the master settings there is still a big pile of cabinet simulation things enabled in the FM3. The speaker resonance is still enabled, speaker drive is enabled, speaker compliance still affects the tone too.

I don’t get it.
Shouldn’t the “ss power amp+cab” setting turn off EVERYTHING cabinet related???
Why do I need to turn all that off by hand to get to the sound of an amp plugged into a cabinet?

I shouldn’t have a modeled cabinet resonance, cabinet drive and cabinet compression being pumped into a real cabinet. From what I can tell all “Bypassed Cabinet Modeling” does it turn off the IR…that’s it. All the other cabinet processing stays on.

I think there should be an “FRFR” setting that outputs all processing, a “SS pwr amp+cab” setting that BYPASSES EVERYTHING cabinet related and lastly an “external IR loader” setting that only bypasses the IR itself but keeps all the processing that makes an IR feel like a real cab.

Even Leon Todd leaves all that cabinet modeling stuff on when he runs a power amp into a cab and I don’t feel like it sounds very authentic. There are a few videos where he runs a rig like this and talks about the low end resonance and it always sounds weird to me.


Do we need to tweak the artificial “cabinet resonance” when any real cabinet will resonate at its resonant frequency??
I totally get and appreciate what all that does to help make an IR feel very real, but so far it feels like it makes my real cab sound wrong.

Am I the only one that is noticing this???
 
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Do you use a traditional guitar amp or a neutral power amp?
 
JTOsburn said:
Sorry man, I don’t mean to be rude. I’m just frustrated. Any advice as far as the device is concerned?
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yek said:
Do you use a traditional guitar amp or a neutral power amp?
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I’ve got a solid state power amp. It’s a fairly new Crown power amp, so it’s not cheap or poor quality.

also, I edited the post to sound less rude. Is it still rude or is that a little better? (Not being sarcastic)
 
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Ah, that's a ss power amp isn't it?
In that case you don't have to worry too much. Crown amps are great, and they don't require much tweaking at the Fractal side.

I use the same presets for direct and for playing through an ss amp + traditional cable and don't change anything in the Amp block.

Some traditional cabs sound like sh*t at low volume levels. What kind of guitar cab do you use?

Here's your walk-through:
8.3 Power amp and guitar speaker

Speaker Compliance, Speaker Compression and Resonance settings: leave these at default when playing through an ss power amp. They are needed, absolutely.

Speaker Drive: don't use that, whatever amplification you're using.
 
Post an example preset and the system settings. Without that we have no way to check how you have it set up that would make it sound good or bad. Remember, a picture is worth 10,000 words. A preset and a config file is worth 20,000.

Regarding writing a question when frustrated, don’t. Open a text editor, type all you want, then save it and close it and wait a day then reread it. Edit it, make sure it says what you want to say in balanced tones then reconsider sending it. If it’s what you want, then copy and paste it and send it.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Post an example preset and the system settings. Without that we have no way to check how you have it set up that would make it sound good or bad. Remember, a picture is worth 10,000 words. A preset and a config file is worth 20,000.

Regarding writing a question when frustrated, don’t. Open a text editor, type all you want, then save it and close it and wait a day then reread it. Edit it, make sure it says what you want to say in balanced tones then reconsider sending it. If it’s what you want, then copy and paste it and send it.
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will do.
 
An ss power amp doesn't have the interaction (impedance and resonance) between amp and speaker like a tube power amp has. So the FM has to simulate that. That's why you really need those resonance settings.

Cliff (Fractal) discussed the Speaker Compression and Compliance params before. He has stated that you leave these in place when playing through an ss power amp, and my findings are that you can indeed. The default settings have so minor effect that it really doesn't matter. Also, changing the amp setting from "FRFR" to "SS" already changes the compression.
 
yek said:
An ss power amp doesn't have the interaction (impedance and resonance) between amp and speaker like a tube power amp has. So the FM has to simulate that. That's why you really need those resonance settings.

Cliff (Fractal) discussed the Speaker Compression and Compliance params before. He has stated that you leave these in place when playing through an ss power amp, and my findings are that you can indeed. The default settings have so minor effect that it really doesn't matter. Also, changing the amp setting from "FRFR" to "SS" already changes the compression.
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I just read that in the link you shared. I’ll share some examples of the results I’m getting shortly.
 
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JTOsburn said:
Even if you bypass cabinet simulation in the master settings there is still a big pile of cabinet simulation things enabled in the FM3. The speaker resonance is still enabled, speaker drive is enabled, speaker compliance still affects the tone too.
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Not an expert but AFAIK from having been around here a while - speaker compression, drive, resonance... are not solely part of Cab Modelling, rather, they are a characteristic of the power amps' interaction with a speaker/speaker cab whether real or modelled. So these controls are often desired to remain on when using PA modelling with a real cab in order maintain realistic modelling.

Not sure, but I think turning PA modelling off will turn off the speaker compression, drive, resonance modelling as well, however, to model realistically with an SS power amp, PA modelling would stay on since the SS amp will not provide PA character.

JTOsburn said:
Shouldn’t the “ss power amp+cab” setting turn off EVERYTHING cabinet related???
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No - see the manual - it changes the nature of speaker compression modelling to relfect what occurs with a real speaker cab.


JTOsburn said:
Do we need to tweak the artificial “cabinet resonance” when any real cabinet will resonate at its resonant frequency??
Click to expand...

There's a tech note on this here ( PA and Cab resonance are linked - not isolated to just the Cab. Leon Todd also did some videos on how to find the resonant frequency of your particular Cab.)
 
yeah, I just read all that stuff about the power amp interaction. Makes sense. I’ve gone back and set all that stuff to default and still have a weird dull tone. The whole reason I was messing with that stuff is the weird tone I was getting in the room. I know I can tweak the master EQ, but I feel like I’m missing something that will make it feel more like the real amp.
I’ve been comparing models and real amps through the same cabinet and it always sounds way dull in comparison 🤷‍♂️
I dunno man, I’m lost
 
sprint said:
speaker compression, drive, resonance... are not solely part of Cab Modelling, rather, they are a characteristic of the power amps' interaction with a speaker/speaker cab whether real or modelled.
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A tube power amp reacts to the speaker constantly and the different frequencies the speaker and amp are generating change their interaction on the fly. That’s a very complex but important part of what makes the model sound real. Take it away and we get more of a distortion or overdrive pedal sound, it doesn’t change right as a note or chord decays and we sense it.
 
JTOsburn said:
yeah, I just read all that stuff about the power amp interaction. Makes sense. I’ve gone back and set all that stuff to default and still have a weird dull tone. The whole reason I was messing with that stuff is the weird tone I was getting in the room. I know I can tweak the master EQ, but I feel like I’m missing something that will make it feel more like the real amp.
I’ve been comparing models and real amps through the same cabinet and it always sounds way dull in comparison 🤷‍♂️
I dunno man, I’m lost
Click to expand...
Nothing will replace having the speaker at a reasonable stage volume. Get the speaker moving air. If you don’t know about the Fletcher Munson Effect then read up because it makes a big difference in the sound of the system.
 
Defaults of speaker drive: 0 compression: 1 & "SS per amp + cab" works well with the matrix and a 4x12 indeed. Feel free to experiment, but to keep things simple, the defaults are perfect starting point.

One thing at least that you may consider setting if you are using the same 4x12 all the time is the low resonance freq., Q and value.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Nothing will replace having the speaker at a reasonable stage volume. Get the speaker moving air. If you don’t know about the Fletcher Munson Effect then read up because it makes a big difference in the sound of the system.
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I always try cranking my rig to see the sound at various volumes, plus comparing it to the actual amp sitting next to it at the same volume should more or less negate that if I’ve got the master volume in a similar position on the model.
 
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