SPDIF - Fairly Low Level in DAW. How to compensate?

M

meshugganner

New Member
Hi all,

This is my first post here! Been lurking the forums quite a bit over the last couple weeks, nice to finally meet y'all. Got the AFX III recently, and am also extremely new to recording, after having played guitar most of my life. I've been overwhelmed with all this (learning DAW/AFX/plugins/everything) the past couple months, but some pieces of the whole process are starting to come together.

Anyway - I have searched through the web & this forum for answers to my question, and while I think I found some good info, I'm a little confused as to what I'd actually do as a result.

Here's my basic setup:
Guitar >>> AFXIII >>> SPDIF out into Focusrite Clarett+ 4pre >>> PC (Cubase 12pro)

***I also have the USB out going into the PC for Axe Edit.

The issue is this:
I have my individual scene/preset level in the AFX leveled for recording so that if I'm looking at the "Out 1" block VU meters in Axe Edit, nothing ever (or very rarely) hits the red (> 0 dB). From what I understand, this is what you want, since it's a digital connection, the 'ceiling' is 0dB. So basically I'm under the impression that I have 'maximized' the AFX levels as much as I can.

However - when I look at the VU meter in Cubase, the level is nowhere near 0dB. It doesn't sound bad, or have any artifacts or anything. I'm just trying to understand why this signal that is supposedly at the 0bD ceiling in the AFX, is nowhere near 0 in the DAW. Reading some other posts, I get the sense that maybe "0dB" is a relative concept, so 0bD in the AFX, may not necessarily translate to 0dB in the DAW. Or something, I dunno.

SO, assuming this is all true, and the even though my signal in Cubase is kinda low, it's still sufficient for recording/processing/mixing purposes - what's the best way to compensate for this?

Do I literally just turn the fader for that track in Cubase up over 0dB?

I know that with subsequent track/parallel/guitarbus/stereobus processing, the volume of that guitar track can be increased with like limiters/compressors & all that, but for starting out, is it advised to just start by turning the fader for the individual track up above 0 before doing any of that?

Or would I leave that fader at 0, and let a limiter or something handle the flat level increase?

Alternatively - have I misunderstood literally everything I've been reading (definitely possible), and should the signal in Cubase appear just as strong as in the AFX?

Thanks to anyone who has any knowledge/experience with this!!!


Here's a link to something I've been working on - really the first thing I've ever written by myself beyond a riff or two. Feel free to critique!:
 
The block VU meters show red at -10dB, not 0 dB. That's in order to leave some headroom. So, that's what you should see on the Cubase input channel, unless of course you do any gain adjustments prior to that. So, there shouldn't be any compensation that needs to be done. In other words, if you have things set up properly, your input should be peaking in Cubase somewhere around -10 dB.

Note that if you want to be able to do re-amping, you'll probably want to set things up a bit differently. You'll find full instructions here:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-for-the-recording-musician.177592/
 
Interesting - that's not what I see. I'm looking at the left/right VU's in the Out 1 block, and they show red once you get anywhere over 0dB. See included pic. If I were to strum any harder it would turn red right at 0dB.
 

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This sometimes confuses people because of the unconventional use of the color red in the meter to mean "about 10 dB below clipping" instead of "clipping". In other words, that 0dB corresponds to roughly -10dbfs. There's some discussion of level adjustment in the recording guide, so I would recommend spending some time reading that.
 
Dont get caught up on this too much. Once upon a time you wanted to run things close to zero to use up as much of the headroom to get a good clear sample. This hasn’t been necessary for years. As long as you’re getting a good solid signal and you’re not clipping, you’re doing it right.
 
@GlennO - That's very good to know. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've seen you all around these forums, and I have looked at that guide quite a bit already. Must've missed the relevant portion.

@Bruce Sokolovic - I've seen that a lot. I believe it, I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to incorporate that. I'm going to sound like an idiot, but put bluntly - how do I make it louder? I mean, at some point that guitar track is going to need to go from 'workable volume' to 'album volume,' right? Sorry for these basic questions - I'm not expecting anybody to be able to explain the entire mixing process to me in a forum post haha. Just trying to figure out how all this stuff works. Thanks for the input!
 
meshugganner said:
@GlennO - That's very good to know. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've seen you all around these forums, and I have looked at that guide quite a bit already. Must've missed the relevant portion.

@Bruce Sokolovic - I've seen that a lot. I believe it, I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to incorporate that. I'm going to sound like an idiot, but put bluntly - how do I make it louder? I mean, at some point that guitar track is going to need to go from 'workable volume' to 'album volume,' right? Sorry for these basic questions - I'm not expecting anybody to be able to explain the entire mixing process to me in a forum post haha. Just trying to figure out how all this stuff works. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...
Well……the whole mix should be hitting between -10 and maybe -6 at the loudest on the master fader for the mix.
Mastering is a different process involving EQ, compression and limiting to get it up to commercial volume.

Mastering is like step #92. Recording your guitars are like step 6.
 
meshugganner said:
how do I make it louder? I mean, at some point that guitar track is going to need to go from 'workable volume' to 'album volume,' right?
Click to expand...
That's of course a very different question than how to get a good recorded guitar level. As you already know, you want the guitar signal to be nice and strong, as close to 0 dbfs as possible, but without clipping. A good rule of thumb is to aim for an average level around -10 dbfs. That gives you plenty of headroom to help ensure you avoid clipping. That's the purpose of that red color in the Axe-FX meter...to help you find that target level.

As for your mix loudness, the LUFS meter in the control room in Cubase is your friend. You'll find that on the "Meter" tab in the Control Room window. Most streaming services (I'm assuming the end destination for your track is a streaming service) will normalize to about -14 dB LUFS. So, unless you want the streaming service to adjust the levels in your track, use that meter to get an integrated value of around -14 dB LUFS.

Use mastering compression and the master channel level to dial in that LUFS value while avoiding clipping. A mastering limiter is valuable to use for this purpose. Mastering plugins like Ozone and Elephant are especially useful.

That said...."how do I make it louder?" doesn't have as much relevance these days precisely because streaming services will normalize to a target LUFS value. In other words, making your track as hot as possible is no longer a worthwhile goal since the streaming services will just normalize it down anyway. Things have changed. The goal is no longer to make it loud. The goal is now to make the track have the dynamics you want.
 
The amount of additional volume your guitar tracks get between tracking and final mix/mastering is... well... it's a lot. I usually track my processed guitar sounds at around -20 to -18db, and by the time the track gets basic mastering done they've been juiced up to anywhere from -9db to -6db, depending on how loud I wanna get and what the rest of the mix is doing.
 
meshugganner said:
@Bruce Sokolovic - I've seen that a lot. I believe it, I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to incorporate that. I'm going to sound like an idiot, but put bluntly - how do I make it louder? I mean, at some point that guitar track is going to need to go from 'workable volume' to 'album volume,' right? Sorry for these basic questions - I'm not expecting anybody to be able to explain the entire mixing process to me in a forum post haha. Just trying to figure out how all this stuff works. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...
Don't. Think about this: if you mix together a track where every source track peaks at -1dbfs, how are you going to fit them in into a master track that peaks at -1dbfs? You'll need to turn them all down. Many many plugins rightfully expect that the source tracks are recorded with sensible levels, eg. peaking around -20..-10dbfs, and feeding them signal thats 20db louder is just making extra work for yourself. External recording gear expects a proper level which is -20..-10dbfs, which is the same as 0dbVU. Feeding them 20db too loud signal isn't just extra work, it doesn't work (unless distortion is what you're after).

Dbfs and dbV and dbU and VU are different scales for slightly different purposes which is confusing since the all have db mentioned somewhere.

https://www.audiorecording.me/what-...ween-dbfs-vu-and-dbu-in-audio-recordings.html
 
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I'm on the FM3 so I don't know if it translates to the AxeFX3.
I've had low SPDIF levels as well, then I realised that the Out1 hardware-know, which I use for headphone level, was set quite low and also affects the digital output level. For recording I keep this know at 90%.
 
That's odd. I've recorded using SPDIF into my UA Apollo going into Logic Pro. No input level issue at all, it's at the perfect level.
 
Opposite problem here. SPDIF ouput from my FM9 is crazy hot. Have to turn the SPDIF in my FX3 down 18dB in the global settings to get more or less unity gain between units....
 
As others have said, there shouldn’t be any dramatic level differences between the various devices in your recording chain, but with modern high-quality (i.e. low noise) electronics you simply no longer have to smash signals to the final DB to get useable tracks.

That said, do realize that often times recording involves balancing your desire for “apparent volume” vs. “punch” (dynamic range), and quite often those two factors can work against one another. Talented mastering engineers can use their tools to optimize both, but the clients “vision” for their song usually determines the final outcome. Although it’s probably a hold-over from having to deal with FM radio broadcast (and video, for that matter) and the Orban Optimod pre-broadcast processing they use, I still to this day find myself “riding the fader” while recording vocals and lead instruments — primarily to make sure my overall track levels are stable AND as dynamic as I want them to be (to minimize the need for subsequent comp/limiter use).

It’s all a balancing act, but I can assure you that a hit song played really well will win out no matter what. I try to remember that.
 
GlennO said:
That's of course a very different question than how to get a good recorded guitar level. As you already know, you want the guitar signal to be nice and strong, as close to 0 dbfs as possible, but without clipping. A good rule of thumb is to aim for an average level around -10 dbfs. That gives you plenty of headroom to help ensure you avoid clipping. That's the purpose of that red color in the Axe-FX meter...to help you find that target level.

As for your mix loudness, the LUFS meter in the control room in Cubase is your friend. You'll find that on the "Meter" tab in the Control Room window. Most streaming services (I'm assuming the end destination for your track is a streaming service) will normalize to about -14 dB LUFS. So, unless you want the streaming service to adjust the levels in your track, use that meter to get an integrated value of around -14 dB LUFS.

Use mastering compression and the master channel level to dial in that LUFS value while avoiding clipping. A mastering limiter is valuable to use for this purpose. Mastering plugins like Ozone and Elephant are especially useful.

That said...."how do I make it louder?" doesn't have as much relevance these days precisely because streaming services will normalize to a target LUFS value. In other words, making your track as hot as possible is no longer a worthwhile goal since the streaming services will just normalize it down anyway. Things have changed. The goal is no longer to make it loud. The goal is now to make the track have the dynamics you want.
Click to expand...
Appreciate the additional info. I'll do some reading up on the LUFS meter. I have been using Ozone already as a sort of 1-click solution for now until I figure more stuff out. It definitely did its thing.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
Well……the whole mix should be hitting between -10 and maybe -6 at the loudest on the master fader for the mix.
Mastering is a different process involving EQ, compression and limiting to get it up to commercial volume.

Mastering is like step #92. Recording your guitars are like step 6.
Click to expand...
OK I think I already had a general idea that this would was the answer, but thanks for sorta confirming.
 
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