Sound Right? Jay's "4x12" IR and RedWirez 4x12

Does this sound right to you? One clip is using Jay's Eminence Legend Off Axis Natural from Axe-Change, the other is using the Red Wirez Marshall V30 TC30 Off Axis 2m. Both are through an 800. I know the tone is nothing to write home about. I picked a random patch I had and put those 2 cabs into it. I've tried the other TC30 RedWirez 4x12's with similar results. I've also tried pushing the bass up, but to no avail. The bass just doesn't seem to be there in the RedWirez. I know there is too much bass in the Eminence clip, but I could easily dial that out. It still sounds more like an actual 4x12 than the RedWirez. Is it possibly better to get a 4x12 IR using a 2x12 and Jay's method than using an actual 4x12 or has something gone wrong?

I'm aware I could mix IR's to get different sounds and such, but Jay's tend to sound the way they are supposed to with no work at all. When I need to put together a patch quickly, I would rather be able to pull up the speaker box I hear the patch needs without having to guess at making a mix of IR's. I have no problem coming back later and fine tuning by mixing other IR's in, but I'd like to be in the ballpark with just one. Jay's IR's tend to put me there every time. He just hasn't done that many different cabs (understandable seeing as he gives his away). That's why I've been hoping the RedWirez would be the silver bullet in that area. Any ideas?

Signal chain is Parker Mojo Spring bridge pup-Peterson StroboRack-AFX (Brit 800 into Cab)-Apogee Ensemble (mic pre off)-Logic Studio. Noise is from an unfortunately placed TV that was on when I was recording.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8445489
 
Just goes to show how subjective these things are. I could never get Jay's impulses to sound right (to me). I grabbed the Red Wire Big Box, and was immediately way closer than I could ever get with any stock or user IR's.
 
randocaster said:
Just goes to show how subjective these things are. I could never get Jay's impulses to sound right (to me). I grabbed the Red Wire Big Box, and was immediately way closer than I could ever get with any stock or user IR's.

+1
 
That's kinda why I was wondering if that's the same sound other people are getting from that cab. Does that sound like the right amount in the low end to you? I've pushed the bass on the amp to full and haven't got much more out of it. That doesn't seem right to me. Just trying to find out why it isn't there.
 
onemoreguitar said:
Does this sound right to you? One clip is using Jay's Eminence Legend Off Axis Natural from Axe-Change, the other is using the Red Wirez Marshall V30 TC30 Off Axis 2m.
It sounds like the kind of difference that IRs can cause.

Is it possibly better to get a 4x12 IR using a 2x12 and Jay's method than using an actual 4x12 or has something gone wrong?
Yes. The fact that I have shared my IRs with no charge does not mean that they are not more faithful to the sound of the physical speakers from which they were taken.

I'm aware I could mix IR's to get different sounds and such, but Jay's tend to sound the way they are supposed to with no work at all.
I appreciate your sharing your experience, and I'm glad to know that my work is valued. I'm not particularly surprised, BTW. There are one or two subtleties in data acquisition that I have mastered over the past 30 years. Even if I were willing to freely share that knowledge, it would require a significant amount of study to achieve a similar level of mastery. Much like learning to play the guitar....

Jay's IR's tend to put me there every time. He just hasn't done that many different cabs (understandable seeing as he gives his away).
Given that there are now two commercial efforts in this area - both of which have derived benefit from knowledge I have shared freely on this forum - IRs I acquire in the future will no longer be offered for free, if they are offered at all. I have in fact removed the sticky with my personal IRs attached from this forum.

That's why I've been hoping the RedWirez would be the silver bullet in that area. Any ideas?
There is not and will never be a silver bullet. If you can find a cab you like and get an accurate IR of that cab - a nontrivial exercise - you can replicate that sound in the Axe-Fx.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
That's why I've been hoping the RedWirez would be the silver bullet in that area. Any ideas?
There is not and will never be a silver bullet. If you can find a cab you like and get an accurate IR of that cab - a nontrivial exercise - you can replicate that sound in the Axe-Fx.

Absolutely the core of the matter. And that's where - and when - all this will really take off. And it has nothing to do with the stock cabs, Jay's work, free IR's, Red Wire, ReCabinet or anyone else *versus* each other or anyone else. Once folks with skills, knowledge, experience and the motivation to do so make all this possible for the average guy out there to work with in a simple manner... that's when, IMHO, modeling and digital takes an enourmous leap forward.

The point I've come up with completely mirrors Jay's statement here - this is not a nontrivial exercise. Everytime you 'think' you've found a silver bullet, the real world sort of chuckles and has it's way with you. Jay has all this dialed down because of his area of expertise and experience; guys like me me 'out here' trying to recreate that sort of knowledge and results without access to the tools, materials, expertise and experience are severely handicapped in trying to get 'there' -- but the level of what we have to work with is increasing and picking up steam.

My prediction is that the next tremendous breakthrough will come when as much focus is applied to making IR's accessible and simple for the 'average' guitarist out there.

At least, IMHO. YMMV. :D
 
As I've stated before, I have learned much from Jay's posts. He was the one who turned me onto the ground plane measurement technique we used on some of our far-fields.

While Jay's far-field collection techniques are undoubtedly more refined than ours, probably we just chose positions that weren't off-axis enough for your taste. It would have been nice to collect far-field samples from a greater number of positions, but it just wasn't realistic from a logistical perspective.

As far as solutions go, instead of cranking the bass, another option is to turn down the treble and just turn up louder. In mixing anyway, it's usually better to cut than to boost.

Just for kicks you should try the "Back" far-field. It's got plenty of bass in relation to high-end and the high-end might still be usable with your settings. And of course there's always the mixIR.

As far as close-mic'ed IRs go, you will probably dig the Royer. My theory as to why studio guys like it so much is that it's figure 8 pattern, it's big proximity effect and high end roll-off make it sound "loud", "in the room" and "off-axis" even at the relatively low volumes of the control room.
 
Scott Peterson said:
[quote="Jay Mitchell":1j8u0ssl]
That's why I've been hoping the RedWirez would be the silver bullet in that area. Any ideas?
There is not and will never be a silver bullet. If you can find a cab you like and get an accurate IR of that cab - a nontrivial exercise - you can replicate that sound in the Axe-Fx.

Once folks with skills, knowledge, experience and the motivation to do so make all this possible for the average guy out there to work with in a simple manner... that's when, IMHO, modeling and digital takes an enourmous leap forward. [/quote:1j8u0ssl]

But who is the average guy? That is really a moving target in this digital age. I think generally, the Axe-Fx is most appealing to a niche market of computer savvy (geeky) guitar players and probably expert/pro players. So, maybe this will be an enormous leap forward when this IR cab replication is simplified for the average pro/geeky/player dude. Even if the IR mixing/cab replicating process was much simplified for the Axe-Fx, I still don't think it would be very accessible to the "average guy". At least most of the average players I know.

But that's not to disagree at all with your point, just a clarification.
 
Just a couple of points I'd like to add. I have learned more from reading Jays posts than anyone about guitar speakers and impulse responses. I am very grateful for that. I think the reason for my sound preferences is because I'm not trying to get an amp in the room sound through FRFR. I play in a cover band and do some studio work, so I am trying to recreate the mic'd up sounds of the songs we're doing through the PA. Generally when recording guitar tracks, a reference mic is also usually not used. I guess it's just how my head is wrapped around it. But as always there are no hard and fast rules.

As for the lack of bass in Red Wires IR's. I did my first gig with them this week. My primary sound is a Plexi1 with G12M->R121->Cap Edge 1". Sounded great at home. But at the gig the low end was too chewy. I think a farther back mic position will solve that. My experience was having too much bass with that particular IR. The bass was close to flat within the preset.

Of course now we have the far field mics and the online mixer. Oy Vey. :mrgreen:
 
Jay Mitchell said:
IRs I acquire in the future will no longer be offered for free, if they are offered at all. I have in fact removed the sticky with my personal IRs attached from this forum.

Completely understandable. And if you decide to offer a commercially available IR collection, you can consider me to be the first person on the dreaded waiting list. :mrgreen:

Thanks for all your contributions.
 
You have to remember that it's not just about making an accurate IR..............you actually have to like the sound of the cab that the IR was made from in the first place. Jay may very well be able to create an amazingly accurate IR from his cab(s), but if you don't like the sound of his cabs it doesn't really matter does it?

BTW, I'm only using Jay as an example.........I'm not making any judgement on his IRs or cabs (or anyone elses for that matter), I'm just saying that if the IR is made from a cab that you don't particularly like the sound of then you're gonna have an IR that you don't like. It seems to me that you prefer the sound of the cab that Jay used over the sound of the cab that Redwire used.............there's nothing wrong with that. I would say that you should just be thankful that someone made a good quality IR of a cab that you like.

p
 
Peter Hundley said:
You have to remember that it's not just about making an accurate IR..............you actually have to like the sound of the cab that the IR was made from in the first place.
Yes, both pieces of the puzzle are essential.

Jay may very well be able to create an amazingly accurate IR from his cab(s), but if you don't like the sound of his cabs it doesn't really matter does it?
"My cab" is as sonically neutral as possible. It is solidly constructed of sonically inert materials and internally damped to eliminate standing waves. The audible contributions made by the cab are entirely due to edge diffraction (all cabinets have edges) and multi-source interference (due to the cab being a 2x12). Ergo, my IRs contain primarily the sound character of the transducers, whereas many guitar cabs add colorations of their own.

I'm just saying that if the IR is made from a cab that you don't particularly like the sound of then you're gonna have an IR that you don't like.
Unless colorations that were added during the IR acquisition process (e.g., due to choice/placement of mic) combined with the cab sound produce a sound that you do like.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
[quote="Peter Hundley":kl84a80l]You have to remember that it's not just about making an accurate IR..............you actually have to like the sound of the cab that the IR was made from in the first place.
Yes, both pieces of the puzzle are essential.

Jay may very well be able to create an amazingly accurate IR from his cab(s), but if you don't like the sound of his cabs it doesn't really matter does it?
"My cab" is as sonically neutral as possible. It is solidly constructed of sonically inert materials and internally damped to eliminate standing waves. The audible contributions made by the cab are entirely due to edge diffraction (all cabinets have edges) and multi-source interference (due to the cab being a 2x12). Ergo, my IRs contain primarily the sound character of the transducers, whereas many guitar cabs add colorations of their own.

I'm just saying that if the IR is made from a cab that you don't particularly like the sound of then you're gonna have an IR that you don't like.
Unless colorations that were added during the IR acquisition process (e.g., due to choice/placement of mic) combined with the cab sound produce a sound that you do like.[/quote:kl84a80l]

I agree that many (most?) guitar cabs add colorations of their own and that coloration is often a big part of what people like about those cabs. Nothing wrong with that if it works for you and gets the sound that you want.

And yes, I'm sure that a poorly taken IR could still create a result that someone finds usable and pleasing. There is a long list of instances in the world of recorded music of something being done "wrong" (technically speaking) and producing amazingly good sounding results. A poorly taken IR may produce a horribly inaccurate representation of the real cab, but it still might be a fantastic sounding cab IR. That's the problem (if you want to call it a problem) with all this stuff...........there isn't a "wrong" or "right". Technically speaking there is.........but the technical "right and wrong" sometimes has very little to do with the sonically pleasing "right and wrong".

In any event the OP should simply be happy that you have created an IR(s) that sounds good to him. In the end it really doesn't matter to anyone but you if your IRs sound like the cabs you took them from..........you have the real cabs to compare to so it may be important to you, the rest of us don't have a clue if they are accurate or not and we don't care...........for the rest of us it's simply a question of "do they work in my application or not?". And again, I'm not singling you out, this attitude goes for any IRs created by anyone. I really don't care if an IR sounds like an accurate represention of the cab it was taken from, I only want it to work in my application. The IR(s) you made clearly work for the OP (and others of course) so if I were him I wouldn't spend much time worrying about why, I would just be happy.

p

p
 
Peter Hundley said:
You have to remember that it's not just about making an accurate IR..............you actually have to like the sound of the cab that the IR was made from in the first place. Jay may very well be able to create an amazingly accurate IR from his cab(s), but if you don't like the sound of his cabs it doesn't really matter does it?

BTW, I'm only using Jay as an example.........I'm not making any judgement on his IRs or cabs (or anyone elses for that matter), I'm just saying that if the IR is made from a cab that you don't particularly like the sound of then you're gonna have an IR that you don't like. It seems to me that you prefer the sound of the cab that Jay used over the sound of the cab that Redwire used.............there's nothing wrong with that. I would say that you should just be thankful that someone made a good quality IR of a cab that you like.

p
Good post, Peter. :)

My preferences is for strong mids and less bass and while I think the RedWire IRs have this bias compared to the factory IRs, I think it would be a mistake to assume and spread a generalisation that "RedWire IRs have no bass". It should be no surprise that some of the close mic positions have plenty of bass.

But the RedWire IR selections work for me because I find myself needing very little post EQ for the tones I like, and I get pleasing results must faster with the RedWire cabs. Certainly, no-one's IRs are right or wrong. Some may be more accurate than others; some may be more artificial by intent or accident. At the end of the day, it's whatever floats your boat that's right for you.
 
I only just read these.

I'm sorry to hear you are removing your IR's Jay. Some of them are really good. I'm not going to say I like them all, but they all sound as described. When I when I want a 1x12 sound, I use your 1x12....a 4x12 your 4x12....it sounds the way you say it should. I've dug the recorded guitar sounds of the AFX since I got it, but I didn't get the live sound live until I gave those IR's a go. I realized I was using 2 IR's (2 separate Hi-Res) most of the time....the one I instinctively thought it needed (4x12, 1x12....)and one of yours to make it sound live. I didn't know which ones were yours for quite a while there. After I found out, I went back and noticed that ALL of my patches had one of your IR's in it to compensate for the close mic'd IR. If there was only one IR, it was one of yours. Again, I'm sorry to hear that you're taking them down. I never needed your money back guarantee. :)

I've personally owned a Marshall with Greenbacks and one with V30s (and another with EV's). I've played with both of them in rooms that are fairly dead sonically. I like both of those cabs very much for different things. They definitely don't have a sound like there's a HP filter on them. Granted, in a sonically dead space, they don't have anywhere near the amount of bass as they do with rear reflections and the like, but they have quite a bit more than what I hear in those IR's.

This isn't about liking the sound of a cab. Whether it's a good sounding quad or a bad sounding quad, they all tend to have a "quad" sort of sound. Obviously close mic'd is a different story, but when they're standing next to you they all have characteristics that are easily recognizable as a quad box. I'm sure it has to do with interaction of the 4 speakers. I'm also sure Jay could explain exactly what's going on there. The main point is I'm not hearing those characteristics. When I use Jay's IR's they sound like their description, whether to my liking or not. I hoped to have a similar experience with the RedWirez IR's.

Don't get me wrong. I should apologize for my wording being overly critical to RedWirez. The RedWirez are great for getting that multi mic'd cab sound that you can get in a studio. I'm not looking for a refund for that very reason. I bought them for one reason and have found they don't do what I was wanting, but they do a number of other things very well. I was getting quite frustrated when I opened this post and that came through a little more than I had intended.

I went ahead and bought the full collection precisely because they were taken using some of Jay's techniques. I was looking to simply choose the amp sound I want, then choose the cab sound I want (based on experience with the actual cabs, and I've owned all of the RedWirez cabs except and original '56 narrow panel, although I did have a 1x12 cab with the original Jensen in it), and then bingo, the sound I was looking for. That was my experience with Jay's IR's. They might not have been the exact brand of speaker or cab or what have you, but they had the right type of sound (4x12, 2x12, 1x12). I'm sure that's possible with the RedWirez, it just seems it's going to take some work. I'll probably just start with Jay's IR's to get me in the ballpark if I'm in a hurry, and if they don't completely fit I'll have to spend some time later making one that fits better.

Again apologies to RedWirez. You make a good product, it just wasn't what I was expecting. Jay, I would ask you to reconsider giving out your IR's, whether for free or at a cost. I for one appreciate them and would love to have more. I thought of getting an Earthworks mic and making my own, trying to base them on your techniques, but I came to the conclusion that without the years of experience in doing it, my results were really going to be a crap shoot.

GM Arts posted while I was writing:

I'm aware that some close mic'd positions have plenty of bass, but that wasn't really the point although I don't believe I made that clear earlier. Jay's far field "4x12" is actually a 2x12 mic'd in a way (30deg off axis horizontally and vertically if I recall correctly) that creates the sound of a 4x12. Not at all accurate to the source, but very accurate as to what he was trying to achieve. My original comment about micing techniques was questioning whether micing those original quads as 2x12's would be more accurate a sound. That would require modifying the original cabs to get that effect, not at all a desirable proposition, but it was a legitimate question. I believe Jay has stated before that a quad is sonically a pair of 2x12's, thus the results he achieved by using a 2x12 to get a 4x12 sound.

The other problem is that near field IR's do not accurately reproduce the sound of the source cab. We then come back to mixing multiple IR's to get the actual sound of the source cab. I was just wondering how Jay could get the sound he was getting with one IR and if a more accurate representation would be achieved with a 2x12 and a specific mic technique.
 
If we had used a position further off axis then the IR would have more bass relative to high-end, but we didn't do that. If Jay's we're 30 degrees off axis in in two dimensions then that would be quite a bit more off-axis than where we sampled. That's kind of what I was afraid of with these IRs. With the relatively few positions that there would not be something for everyone, like with the close-mic'ed IRs. Should have stuck with my philosophy. If you're going to do it, then overdo it.
 
onemoreguitar said:
...
GM Arts posted while I was writing:

I'm aware that some close mic'd positions have plenty of bass, but that wasn't really the point although I don't believe I made that clear earlier.
...
Yep, no problem, onemoreguitar.
My quote:
GM Arts said:
I think it would be a mistake to assume and spread a generalisation that "RedWire IRs have no bass". It should be no surprise that ...
was directed to all readers. All too often someone's perception or opinion in one thread ends up being repeated as fact in later threads. I should have been clearer with my concern on that. :)
 
Don't take it as a knock. I was looking for something that wasn't there. I'm a rather picky bas$%#d (is that even a bad word?) which is one of the reasons I bought an AFX. Not to worry. If you're planning to do them that way, then by all means, don't let me stop you. :)

I believe Jay said he used the floor reflection to effectively double the 2x12 sound. Since he asserted that a quad acted more as 2 2x12's this gave an accurate quad sound. I would be more than happy to send you his IR if he were ok with it, although I'm sure you could contact him and get it as well if he were so inclined.

Like I said. I was looking for the magic bullet. I found it in a general way with Jay's IR's and was looking for more of the same with the TC30 IR's. By the way, by magic bullet I mean that I can dial in the sound 90-95% of the way with nothing more than 1 amp and 1 cab (maybe a drive depending on the sound but you get the idea), the same way I do with physical rigs live and in the studio. All the rest is just polish. After the core tone, I add effects if needed and adjust as necessary. That has definitely become easier with 9.0, but the cab is still such an integral part of the sound.

The point is when I have to get patches together for a show, I don't have a lot of time to spend going through IR's in hopes of hitting the ultimate sound. I need to be able to pull a fairly accurate sound quickly and intuitively. If I have time later, I can come back and add a bit of polish, but If I don't, I'd like to be able to live with the tone unchanged.

Just to reiterate what GM Arts was pointing out, there is plenty of bass in some of the RedWirez IR's, I was merely talking about the FarField TC30 IR's in comparison to my personal experience with the actual cabs and with Jay's IR's.
 
No offense taken. My point is that we probably should have done more positions further off axis. That's something we can address going forward. No need to send me Jay's IR, it's not going to help.

P.S. You really should try the Royer at 1-2" on the cap. Keep an open mind (and ears). You may like it.
 
I definitely will. That's one of my go to mic's and positions in the studio. I assume that I'll end up using that with a bit of the FF IR and maybe some back 5ft 2m as well. My ears are open, just got to find more time. I also still haven't been able to get the mixer to work. It's in the same folder, tried the install, still nothing. I also tried the online version, but it said it couldn't find the IR's. I was trying to use the truncated wav files.
 
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