Sometimes Axe-Fx vs. Amp comparisons miss the point

greyanaroth said:
Wow that video is one of the best things I've seen in a long time! Thank you so much :)
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You're welcome. I saw another of Hal's master class videos about a year ago, and he's become my hero. He articulates very effectively a number of concepts that have gradually been dawning on me over the past 20+ years.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Thank you for that. In saying "the spark is in the fingers," you are implicilty acknowledging that the player's "soul" is the source of powerful music. The instrument and the gear are implements to be used in pursuit of the goal of making music. Nothing more, nothing less.

Here's a master's take on this subject: YouTube - ‪Hal Galper's Master Class - The Illusion of An Instrument‬‏ .
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that's a real interesting video , thanks .
i hear what you ,and he's saying , but doesn't the gear can bring less or more "pleasure" to the player ? he "makes" the sound , the intention , etc but the gear is also giving you something else , no , it "respond" to you ? i mean playing a 1st generation pod ,and then a axe fx 2 , it will be still jay mitchell who plays , but will you have more pleasure with with the pod or axe fx ?
 
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Jay Mitchell said:
You're welcome. I saw another of Hal's master class videos about a year ago, and he's become my hero. He articulates very effectively a number of concepts that have gradually been dawning on me over the past 20+ years.
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This one had the same effect on me! Except for the fact that it's probably 8+ years for me, and not your giganto 20 :p I'm going to check out more of his videos! He put across, very simply, a concept I've been trying to articulate over the past few years, focusing more on raw instinct and emotion than a bunch of rules. Of course, theory and practice are very important, and sometimes even rudimentary! But this, as they say, separates the boys from the men :)

Thanks once again! *rushes to spend more time playing guitar and less time on forums!*
 
guitarzpt said:
Well that is true, but are they using it in albums?
Show me an album with a good guitar sound recorded with the AXE-FX direct and I'm sold! :)

Oh wait I already have an AXE-FX ultra lol, but still It doesnt convince me to do a studio album on it!
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Devin Townsend used the Ultra on his three latest albums ( Addicted, Deconstruct and Ghost) for a lot of the guitar parts.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Thank you for that. In saying "the spark is in the fingers," you are implicilty acknowledging that the player's "soul" is the source of powerful music. The instrument and the gear are implements to be used in pursuit of the goal of making music. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I believe they mingle in the same glass.
 
Great post, Sans Logic (you need to change your handle to just plain "Logic" ;)

In all my modelling years (nearly 20 years now, all the way back to the Roland GP-100), I think I'm guilty of attempting to emulate only one amp - the 70's Marshall "growl/crunch" tone just because it sits so well in a band mix by adding power without dominating the mix. Something the Ultra does so well, and others do rather badly IMHO.

But for all the different modellers and guitars I've used over the years, I've always gone for a core set of tones without any real thought about what amp and cab models I should use. My core tones my cover band work are style-based rather than amp-based:

Clean & chunky - just on the edge of break-up
Fat & full - with a little breakup
Thin & chunky - a bit like SRV tone
70's Marshall (ok, the exception as above)
Rich & creamy - more overdrive, not too bright, for a solid solo tone
Country Rock - cleanish with a little "bark"
Bright & heavy overdrive - usable for either chunky metal crunch/rhythm or boosted for sizzling solos

I've found this set of tones cover just about any song, and music style I've ever had to cover. The main advantage is that amps are out of the equation - it's just about "what type of tone suits this part of the song?"
 
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MikeyB59 said:
In general I get your point and I'm a "whatever works for you" person, but I wouldn't take Frank Gambale's tone as an example of something to emulate, at least the times I've seen him with Vital Information. He can play his A(*& off, but his sound is severely lacking to me. Mike Stern is kind of that way, too. That 80's chorus sound gets old in a hurry and there's so little expressive variation to my ear.

Mike
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I kinda have the same idea, I don't like his tone too much, but I liked the idea that tubes are outdated.

Maybe he needs and Axe FX to sort himself out. LOL :D
 
Jay Mitchell said:
In saying "the spark is in the fingers," you are implicilty acknowledging that the player's "soul" is the source of powerful music. The instrument and the gear are implements to be used in pursuit of the goal of making music. Nothing more, nothing less.

Here's a master's take on this subject: YouTube - ‪Hal Galper's Master Class - The Illusion of An Instrument‬‏ .
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Cool video! Effortless Mastery touches on some similar concepts. I should probably give it another read. :geek
 
well if sound is not in the gear i don't understand why everybody don't play a POD pocket, become histeric about axe fx II, and ask endless question about the right choice of amplification.

sound in the hand is one thing : the way you attack, you pick , note choices , harmony choices , every little technic you have , rythmic placment etc etc , that's why van halen will sound like van halen in every gear he plays , because of all these elements.

but the texture of a sound is another story van halen with a pod or van halen with a screaming marshall at a sweet spot will not please HIS and YOUR ears the same, at all

that's the basics in music and why we all buy gear and prefer axe fx over cosm or pod.
my 2 cent
 
stefherbuel said:
well if sound is not in the gear i don't understand why everybody don't play a POD pocket, become histeric about axe fx II, and ask endless question about the right choice of amplification.

sound in the hand is one thing : the way you attack, you pick , note choices , harmony choices , every little technic you have , rythmic placment etc etc , that's why van halen will sound like van halen in every gear he plays , because of all these elements.

but the texture of a sound is another story van halen with a pod or van halen with a screaming marshall at a sweet spot will not please HIS and YOUR ears the same, at all

that's the basics in music and why we all buy gear and prefer axe fx over cosm or pod.
my 2 cent
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I respectfully disagree (to an extent).

The basic fundamental of music is to hit the right note(s) at the right time. The sound has become a sweetening factor in this, but the basic premise is that the right notes need to exist in the first place. This is dependent on psychological expectation of which culture is a huge factor. That's why we don't find Chinese scale systems as pleasant as we do a blues scale. There are a huge amount of variables which determine a players style, but the main thing to remember is that musically, in a recorded work, it's the player who is responsible for the notes. The sound is due to the engineering, and what we hear in a recorded work is a false facsimile of the actual recorded sound. I'm not saying that this is irrelevant, but just that it tends to be because of the engineers input than the musicians.

When we listen to Whole Lotta Love, we get a vibe from it. That vibe is due to a combination the sound and the notes (so I don't entirely disagree), but stack it up against todays engineering and possibilities, and there is a huge chance it wouldn't have been looked at twice if it was released today. This is a symptom of time and culture moving on (and I am ion no way dissing Led Zepplin by saying this).

However, in any piece of equipment there is always a sound you can use. I personally have gotten great recorded tones from a Pod that sit far better than a miked amp, with less dynamic manipulation needed. I have also gotten useable (albiet more grungy) tones from a Behringer V-Amp.

So the question now is, why did I buy an Axe Ultra at all? The answer lies (as it always should) in the possibilites. I have access to more possibilities with the unit, but I haven't thrown out my copy of Guitar Rig.

IMO, it all depends on the right tool for the job. But the tool needs hands, and without the right notes, it'll take a lot more work.
 
hi BigD1977 , thanks for the answer, and interesting discuss
i agree with you with the right notes, and that every piece of gear can be used as it produce a sound and any sound can be used in an artistic way.
but further than the right note at the right time , the sound itself has a texture, a color that you would like ...or not.
that's why some prefer marshall, other boogie etc.
i mean the edge without a vox loose a lot of his "signature" , van halen without his old plexi too (to me) , eric johnson too , etc etc.
if you put a great player, now with an awesome amp it will sound great , if you put the same player with a bad amp, his hability will make him sound great (note choice, technic etc etc) but the sound will be less "pleasing" to your ears ? ..no ?
i mean listen lukather with a pod, great player great chops, right note at the right moment, but that don't please ears at all :-(

YouTube - ‪lukather emotive solo‬‏
 
Aye, it's a wee bit scratchy, but the sound could be used to better effect. :) The influence of the questionable quality of youtube audio has a part to play too though. On an aside, I personally cannot stand youtube audio, but that's outside the realms of the discussion.

I think we agree on most things. The Edge wouldn't sound like the Edge without delayed lead and chordal lines (personally, it's the more important aspect of his sound rather than his amp to my ears), but the question has to be asked, how did he get his sound in the first place? The answer (or the kernel of it) is through experimentation, not emulation.

Eddie VH to me wouldn't sound the same without tapping and an overuse (to me, don't shoot me!!! lol) of legato. Eric Johnston wouldn't be Eric Johnson without partial arpeggios and use of 9ths 11ths and 13th in effective places.

The sound IS very important, and plays a huge part in the overall effect, and even can be used effectively in place of discernable notes. YouTube - ‪Nine Inch Nails - Tetsuo: The Bullet Man Theme‬‏

But the argument must be made, especially on a gear forum, that to lose sight of the music in favour of the gear we use would be a huge mistake.
 
BigD1977 said:
But the argument must be made, especially on a gear forum, that to lose sight of the music in favour of the gear we use would be a huge mistake.
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i agree with all you said but just to say : i remember when i played younger a cheap valvstate marshall amp and bought a boogie amp : 1st chords i played on it was a "waw" on my face and on my friend face : "what a sound !" ..i mean it was still me...and my friend were still hear me.when i hear van halen i hear his "identity" (tapping, rythm placment , legato etc) but i also here an amp who scream in interaction with his play , a fender wouldn't scream like that.so we all search for the same thing, the "big" sound in a box, but you're right some people forget the most important thing , you have to play music with it and that's the most important part !
 
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