Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folks.

Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

I've never had a problem with it. If the reverb sounded right in my home studio, it generally did not get in the way live. For rooms that were too reflective, drying up the guitar didn't do much. If it did, I would suspect there was way too much reverb to begin with.

I also believe that electronic early reflection will potentially hurt you more than reverb. Most rooms I played had gobs of ER, but not a long reverb tail. If the room you're playing in has a decay time that long, your wallet should be pretty fat :)
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

Matman said:
Going to be a bit of the devil's advocate here. I understand your point but would take a less black and white approach.

You are clear that this "Don't use reverb live" is a proposed solution to the problem of "not cutting" which is good.

I'm not so quick to throw the effect away altogether, nor to tap a DELAY when what you refer to as "depth" is required, however. A reverb is after all, typically just a bunch of delay lines and the Axe-Fx reverb block can go a long way.

One reason reverb can kill is that people are too enthusiastic with it. For example, a low mixed verb with short decay time value in the 0-0.5 seconds range is not going to strike the player as exciting, but can add just the right light density without squashing the vibe.

The Reverb block's "Early Reflections" side can do some pretty cool things by getting rid of the overpowering secondary reflections. (Set REVERB LEVEL to -40 and EARLY level to 0). Listen to some Peter Gabriel

Also, turning density and diffusion down or off in the VERB gives you less washy verbs which in my experience can allow a track in a mix to cut and have some space at the same time.

As anyone who has mixed drums will tell you, some EQ on the wet reverb signal is also essential -- whether you use the onboard Low Cut / High Cut or even pass 100% wet into a parametric EQ for more dramatic effects. Beware of booming in the lows, conflict in the critical mids, or sizzly washout in the highs. Even a narrow pass thru can be nice!

Lastly, such proclamations might not need to be so universal given the ability to modify parameters in realtime. The Axe-Fx offers a great way to add DUCKING to your Reverb for example: run at 100% wet in parallel to the dry signal and assign the envelope inversely to LEVEL. Now you get the tails without the trampling, to whatever degree you like. It's easiest for me to get the dynamics right if I just follow this with a PEQ or VOL to set the mix (or use input gain in the verb block for that).

Anyway, just wanted to add some food for thought :)

I messed around today and fell into a rabbit hole. Thanks Matman. :D

I found something REALLY stupid cool to do with reverb that Matt's post sparked, though I twisted it by trial and error into a really sweet sort of early reflection only sort of thing that adds an extremely cool, yet very subtle 'body' or 'resonance' to the actual tone without any apparent drawbacks.

I ran with the Early Level at 0.00 and Reverb at -40db. Predelay at 30.5ms and Tail Delay at 120.1ms. I ran it in parallel to the dry tone, with the Mix at 100% and the Level at -20.00db. I have the Input Diffusion at 15% and the Diffusion time at 100% with a 50% Wall Diffusion. It's a Small room with the key here: 70Hz Low Cut and 1204Hz High Cut so you only get some 'body' really to the tone. A/B tested against just amp/cab and it's soooo subtle, yet soooo cool.

What it sounds like is the missing "3-D" thing I've always chased with mixing IR's, except it's right here in this early reflection reverb. Aha! There you are, ya bastage!!

Coolest part? Works for cleanest cleans and meanest hard core dirt and everything in between. Outstanding!!

Matt - thanks for opening a new door for me.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

Listen what happens when this kind of low mixed reflections verb goes into a (stereo compressor). Be prepared to lower the levels even more, but you can get a crazy hot room.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

steadystate said:
If the room you're playing in has a decay time that long, your wallet should be pretty fat :)
:lol:

Or maybe you never were in a HUGE garage band...? :p
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

Scott Peterson said:
Matman said:
Going to be a bit of the devil's advocate here. I understand your point but would take a less black and white approach.

You are clear that this "Don't use reverb live" is a proposed solution to the problem of "not cutting" which is good.

I'm not so quick to throw the effect away altogether, nor to tap a DELAY when what you refer to as "depth" is required, however. A reverb is after all, typically just a bunch of delay lines and the Axe-Fx reverb block can go a long way.

One reason reverb can kill is that people are too enthusiastic with it. For example, a low mixed verb with short decay time value in the 0-0.5 seconds range is not going to strike the player as exciting, but can add just the right light density without squashing the vibe.

The Reverb block's "Early Reflections" side can do some pretty cool things by getting rid of the overpowering secondary reflections. (Set REVERB LEVEL to -40 and EARLY level to 0). Listen to some Peter Gabriel

Also, turning density and diffusion down or off in the VERB gives you less washy verbs which in my experience can allow a track in a mix to cut and have some space at the same time.

As anyone who has mixed drums will tell you, some EQ on the wet reverb signal is also essential -- whether you use the onboard Low Cut / High Cut or even pass 100% wet into a parametric EQ for more dramatic effects. Beware of booming in the lows, conflict in the critical mids, or sizzly washout in the highs. Even a narrow pass thru can be nice!

Lastly, such proclamations might not need to be so universal given the ability to modify parameters in realtime. The Axe-Fx offers a great way to add DUCKING to your Reverb for example: run at 100% wet in parallel to the dry signal and assign the envelope inversely to LEVEL. Now you get the tails without the trampling, to whatever degree you like. It's easiest for me to get the dynamics right if I just follow this with a PEQ or VOL to set the mix (or use input gain in the verb block for that).

Anyway, just wanted to add some food for thought :)

I messed around today and fell into a rabbit hole. Thanks Matman. :D

I found something REALLY stupid cool to do with reverb that Matt's post sparked, though I twisted it by trial and error into a really sweet sort of early reflection only sort of thing that adds an extremely cool, yet very subtle 'body' or 'resonance' to the actual tone without any apparent drawbacks.

I ran with the Early Level at 0.00 and Reverb at -40db. Predelay at 30.5ms and Tail Delay at 120.1ms. I ran it in parallel to the dry tone, with the Mix at 100% and the Level at -20.00db. I have the Input Diffusion at 15% and the Diffusion time at 100% with a 50% Wall Diffusion. It's a Small room with the key here: 70Hz Low Cut and 1204Hz High Cut so you only get some 'body' really to the tone. A/B tested against just amp/cab and it's soooo subtle, yet soooo cool.

What it sounds like is the missing "3-D" thing I've always chased with mixing IR's, except it's right here in this early reflection reverb. Aha! There you are, ya bastage!!

Coolest part? Works for cleanest cleans and meanest hard core dirt and everything in between. Outstanding!!

Matt - thanks for opening a new door for me.

Sounds promising!
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

I just use a short 250ms delay without a lot of mix when using a medium gain amp so that the notes don't feel so choppy when playing lead. That's not really reverb, but sounds sort of like it without the long trails to me.

Other than that, I'm not a big fan of reverb unless I'm playing the shadows or something.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

Matman said:
Listen what happens when this kind of low mixed reflections verb goes into a (stereo compressor). Be prepared to lower the levels even more, but you can get a crazy hot room.

Nooooooooo.... back into the rabbit hole....... aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg...

:D
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

I totally agree with you Scott on your OP. I never use reverb live, and also advice people to not use it. I use my circular delays if I want some depth. Reverb only works on very rare occasions, like extremely dead rooms, or very very sparsely arranged settings or type of music. On acoustic, I use reverb, but only a little in a band setting.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

I don't use much reverb live. I do use it some, but I also know what I'm doing with it. Some of my patches have no reverb, a select few have a great deal of it, most of them have a very subtle ambient reverb that adds a little life if I'm in a dead room but is virtually imperceptible outside of a dead room.

This has worked well for me. I'm very careful with my pre-delay and tail settings though as well as the high and low pass filters. Careful selections here can allow you to use just about any level of reverb you need live as long as it fits the music.

While I can use reverb when I need it, 80% of my patches have none or such a subtle one that most people would never pick it out as reverb. When I use it as an effect though, it can be pretty incredible.

D
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

I don't know what kind of patches and reverb settings Scott experienced (that were not his own),
so I can only guess how those may have sounded like.

I'm among the majority here: most of my patches, especially crunch/high gain/lead ones have either no reverb or just that amount, that keeps them from sounding "too" dry because there is no actual room involved in the virtual mic'ing (= impulse response). I rather use delay (especially for lead sounds) for all the reasons pointed out.
My electric clean patches have just a bit reverb to give them some "space", but it's that sparse that together with the band you'd only notice it if I switched it off. Jay's tip with the separate reflection and tail times (and which values) was golden to me and made night and day difference. Before, I messed around with reverb but left it out 'cause it killed the punch or snap; with 40ms/110ms it came back.
My fake acoustic piezo patch is quite wet, but that's part of the arrangement: only basic drums and bass in the background, moderate vocals.
An exception are my Robbie Krieger patches, as the pronounced spring reverb is just part of his sound and cutting in a mix with just keys (keyboard bass!) and drums is not an issue.

Beside Cliff's rule o' thumb I'd say, a lot of reverb sounds could sound better and would cut with proper early reflection/reverb tail leveling and timing. Very powerful!
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

The amount of reverb I use live (I have an expression pedal set up to control the reverb mix) is driven entirely by the venue acoustics. In most of the clubs I play in, early reflections are already excessive, and articulation suffers as a result. Ergo, my general-purpose reverb settings tend to de-emphasize early reflections and rely on the reverberant tail with a total predelay time of 150ms or more. In the really live venues, I only ever use delay, with just enough feedback to create one or two slaps.

OTOH, in a really dead and/or diffusive venue - say one with an 8-foot drop tile ceiling, heavily padded furniture, thick carpet, etc. - I find that some amount of 'verb is essential to add what the room does not.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

Jay Mitchell said:
The amount of reverb I use live (I have an expression pedal set up to control the reverb mix) is driven entirely by the venue acoustics. In most of the clubs I play in, early reflections are already excessive, and articulation suffers as a result. Ergo, my general-purpose reverb settings tend to de-emphasize early reflections and rely on the reverberant tail with a total predelay time of 150ms or more. In the really live venues, I only ever use delay, with just enough feedback to create one or two slaps.

OTOH, in a really dead and/or diffusive venue - say one with an 8-foot drop tile ceiling, heavily padded furniture, thick carpet, etc. - I find that some amount of 'verb is essential to add what the room does not.

Ha! I read thru this thread and was going to reply but Jay made my point much better than I would have. Rooms reverb themselves - venue acoustics is always what determines how much verb I use live. More often than not, it's OFF.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... don't use it live folks.

Scott Peterson said:
I found something REALLY stupid cool to do with reverb that Matt's post sparked, though I twisted it by trial and error into a really sweet sort of early reflection only sort of thing that adds an extremely cool, yet very subtle 'body' or 'resonance' to the actual tone without any apparent drawbacks.

I ran with the Early Level at 0.00 and Reverb at -40db. Predelay at 30.5ms and Tail Delay at 120.1ms. I ran it in parallel to the dry tone, with the Mix at 100% and the Level at -20.00db. I have the Input Diffusion at 15% and the Diffusion time at 100% with a 50% Wall Diffusion. It's a Small room with the key here: 70Hz Low Cut and 1204Hz High Cut so you only get some 'body' really to the tone. A/B tested against just amp/cab and it's soooo subtle, yet soooo cool.

What it sounds like is the missing "3-D" thing I've always chased with mixing IR's, except it's right here in this early reflection reverb. Aha! There you are, ya bastage!!

Coolest part? Works for cleanest cleans and meanest hard core dirt and everything in between. Outstanding!!

Matt - thanks for opening a new door for me.

I use the ER section of reverbs for this purpose. I think I get a better result using the QuadTap Delay with the delay, diffusion, and filters adjusted just right. I get a shorter diffuse effect with a less "metallic" character. I can generally pump it louder in the mix than the ER section without objectionable consequences. I use it mostly for solos. It is not apparent as an effect until I turn it off. The delay and decay are too short to be perceived as separate from the direct signal. I can hear people (people who know what they are talking about at that) crying foul already... ;)

Much discussion has been made of the Left/Center/Right live method and I completely understand why many guitarists like it. I don't like precise localization of the direct signal. In many instances, I like to be as aggressive as I can with short diffuse delay without seriously compromising articulation.

Listen to a middle-period Allan Holdsworth solo (Metal Fatigue to Hard Hat Area) through headphones. In many songs, you can't localize his guitar. Yet it is anything but inarticulate, even when his playing is over-the-top. It doesn't sound chorused. It doesn't sound dry surrounded by ER and reverb. You can't tell where it is coming from. It is simply spacious. Of course, there are delays, reverb, etc., but what I am referring to is the immediate tone, the seemingly direct tone that spreads across the two channels and is just killer. I don't know what method he uses to obtain this immediate diffuse effect, but I love it. I suspect great mic technique.

I also understand that the focus here is live sound and that this type of fast diffuse delay could be a huge problem if overdone. The reason this thread started was the observation that live reverb is often overdone. If I engage/disengage the effect in a lively room, there is little perceived difference. If I engage/disengage the effect in a dry room or through headphones, the difference is appreciable. Since I was never into adjusting reverb for every location I played, this was my method for knowing if the mix is about right.

Your mileage may vary tremendously.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

Jay Mitchell said:
The amount of reverb I use live (I have an expression pedal set up to control the reverb mix) is driven entirely by the venue acoustics. In most of the clubs I play in, early reflections are already excessive, and articulation suffers as a result. Ergo, my general-purpose reverb settings tend to de-emphasize early reflections and rely on the reverberant tail with a total predelay time of 150ms or more. In the really live venues, I only ever use delay, with just enough feedback to create one or two slaps.

OTOH, in a really dead and/or diffusive venue - say one with an 8-foot drop tile ceiling, heavily padded furniture, thick carpet, etc. - I find that some amount of 'verb is essential to add what the room does not.

I said this earlier in not nearly as a technical manner. Depending on the venue, I needs me 'verb.

But I did try Scott's delay trick tonight...and I'm hooked.
 
Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

After reading this thread several times and doing LOTS of experimentation, I've come up with a reverb setting that works great for me when playing live. The main output of the Axe goes to our PA, with an FX loop feeding my on-stage cabinet. It's based on the Lexicon PCM70 settings outlined in the Wiki (my go-to reverb, BTW), but changed to emphasise the pre-delay and early reflections and mixed quite low.

With my setup, it gives plenty of body and a real 'aliveness' to the sound, but doesn't get lost in the overall band mix at all. Settings are as follows, let me know what you think if you can be bothered to try it ;)

[attachment=1:2ogn16qi]reverbBasic.jpg[/attachment:2ogn16qi]

[attachment=0:2ogn16qi]reverbAdvanced.jpg[/attachment:2ogn16qi]
 

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Re: Something about reverb.... use it sparingly on gigs folk

Unless you are mainly playing solo, reverb can wash you out just like gain will wash you out... it can you put in the background relative to the rest of the band. This may be what you want sometimes for some sounds, but often people don't expect this and wonder why their killer sound they created all of a sudden sounds so weak. Also, it should be coordinated because the sound guys may may have their own idea of what they're putting verb on, which may compound or conflict with your idea.

Sometimes Plate reverb can still let you hang pretty good in a mix if you want to experiment.

Also common mistakes are using too much delay and sometimes too much chorus (if you use it) - these can also wash you out and the latter can even make the whole band sound out of tune, unless the band is giving you a lot of space when you use it.

This isn't the best quality, but youtube has a clip of John Sykes doing Billy (Blue Murder ) that represents one way to put fx to good use for a solo without overdoing it. At around 3:00 in his solo, fx come in for part of his solo - probably the sound guy sliding the fader up and then down. Then its backed out, and most of the guitar performance is relatively dry, and it saves the reverb for vocals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e30Wa7Fy0pU
 
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