• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Some days...I love YouTube.

Geezerjohn

Fractal Fanatic
Great points guys. As a guitar teacher for many years, I get a lot of students that have been self-taught. Many have developed habits that are extremely difficult to change. I am convinced it is much more difficult to unlearn bad habits (poor picking technique, playing with just 3 fingers, etc.). Such things are difficult to unlearn. Such bad habits definitely inhibit mastering more advanced skills. I did not say that a teacher is a must, but I still think it is preferable to Y-Tube. Finding a good teacher can be difficult, especially in this age of self-taught Y-Tube guitarists. ;)

I had the good fortune to study under the late great Harry Leahey for 5 years. Changed my whole world. Some of his other students included Al Di Meola, and Larry Coryell. He was the go-to teacher in the Tri-State area where I grew up. Not many teachers had a 3-year waiting list, but Harry did. He was not only a virtuoso player, he was a very gifted teacher. He was a good friend. My Yoda. He could take complex things and make them understandable. Prior to taking lessons with Harry I thought I was a self taught bad ass. Then I sat in a chair in front of the master. A VERY humbling experience. I had developed my own bad habits that were tough to overcome. I speak from experience.
 

Project Mayhem

Experienced
Great points guys. As a guitar teacher for many years, I get a lot of students that have been self-taught. Many have developed habits that are extremely difficult to change. I am convinced it is much more difficult to unlearn bad habits (poor picking technique, playing with just 3 fingers, etc.). Such things are difficult to unlearn. Such bad habits definitely inhibit mastering more advanced skills. I did not say that a teacher is a must, but I still think it is preferable to Y-Tube. Finding a good teacher can be difficult, especially in this age of self-taught Y-Tube guitarists. ;)

I had the good fortune to study under the late great Harry Leahey for 5 years. Changed my whole world. Some of his other students included Al Di Meola, and Larry Coryell. He was the go-to teacher in the Tri-State area where I grew up. Not many teachers had a 3-year waiting list, but Harry did. He was not only a virtuoso player, he was a very gifted teacher. He was a good friend. My Yoda. He could take complex things and make them understandable. Prior to taking lessons with Harry I thought I was a self taught bad ass. Then I sat in a chair in front of the master. A VERY humbling experience. I had developed my own bad habits that were tough to overcome. I speak from experience.
Agree completely on bad habits. I could teach anyone how to be a competent golfer in less than a year... provided they had never played before. But erasing incorrect programming is much more difficult.
 

Henry

Inspired
I had the good fortune to study under the late great Harry Leahey for 5 years. Changed my whole world. Some of his other students included Al Di Meola, and Larry Coryell. He was the go-to teacher in the Tri-State area where I grew up. Not many teachers had a 3-year waiting list, but Harry did. He was not only a virtuoso player, he was a very gifted teacher. He was a good friend. My Yoda. He could take complex things and make them understandable. Prior to taking lessons with Harry I thought I was a self taught bad ass. Then I sat in a chair in front of the master. A VERY humbling experience. I had developed my own bad habits that were tough to overcome. I speak from experience.
Alright. Got inspired and contacted a guitar teacher. Thanks @Geezerjohn!
 

Bman

Experienced
I took my first lesson in over 35 years a couple of weeks ago. In the previous lesson (35 yrs ago) my teacher asked if I had heard ‘Rainbow in the Dark’. I played it for him while he tabbed it out for the next student. It’s a shame because I never got to the theory part at that age but I’m fortunate that I have an ear for it.

YouTube has recently inspired me to learn now. I’ve been playing within small box patterns all these years, all by feel and ear. And I’m embarrassed to admit this but I never bothered to learn the 5 penatonic positions which is like basic right? Once I learned them it’s like the whole neck is familiar and I’m never lost. The years of winging it obviously helps but I’m kicking myself for shagging it.

So I take a one on one lesson and we both had no clue where to start. An hour later at the end of the 30min lesson the teacher tells me to learn the vocabulary because I obviously knew what I was doing. At first I thought it was a waste. But he’s right. And I consider that the best lesson I’ve had. And it’s opened up so much more for me to learn on You Tube.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I took my first lesson in over 35 years a couple of weeks ago. In the previous lesson (35 yrs ago) my teacher asked if I had heard ‘Rainbow in the Dark’. I played it for him while he tabbed it out for the next student. It’s a shame because I never got to the theory part at that age but I’m fortunate that I have an ear for it.

YouTube has recently inspired me to learn now. I’ve been playing within small box patterns all these years, all by feel and ear. And I’m embarrassed to admit this but I never bothered to learn the 5 penatonic positions which is like basic right? Once I learned them it’s like the whole neck is familiar and I’m never lost. The years of winging it obviously helps but I’m kicking myself for shagging it.

So I take a one on one lesson and we both had no clue where to start. An hour later at the end of the 30min lesson the teacher tells me to learn the vocabulary because I obviously knew what I was doing. At first I thought it was a waste. But he’s right. And I consider that the best lesson I’ve had. And it’s opened up so much more for me to learn on You Tube.
Expand those pentatonic boxes to the (related) 3-note-per-string patterns and it will open up when more!
 

Bman

Experienced
Do you mean like a 1 4 5 pattern? Or triads? Or doing an excercise of finding the same note each time it is on a string - like 2.8 times according to Beato?
 

unix-guy

Legend!
Do you mean like a 1 4 5 pattern? Or triads? Or doing an excercise of finding the same note each time it is on a string - like 2.8 times according to Beato?
No, I mean that just like there are multiple patterns (boxes) for the pentatonic scale that "connect" all the notes, there are similar patterns for the diatonic scales (played with 3 notes per string), that similarly connect all the notes.

Also, my guess is that you really mean "pentatonic minor", as there is also a pentatonic major scale. You should learn that as well (actually, you already know the boxes, because the note patterns are the same, just the context is different).

Learning diatonic scales and understanding chord construction is a big key!

I used to do "chord relay" exercises where you play all the triads in a diatonic key. This can then be extended to 7th chords, too.

Once you see the relationship, it's actually all really simple.

Edit:

Note that the pentatonic scales are just a subset of notes from diatonic scales. You know most of it already.
 

Wigam2

Inspired
I took my first lesson in over 35 years a couple of weeks ago. In the previous lesson (35 yrs ago) my teacher asked if I had heard ‘Rainbow in the Dark’. I played it for him while he tabbed it out for the next student. It’s a shame because I never got to the theory part at that age but I’m fortunate that I have an ear for it.

YouTube has recently inspired me to learn now. I’ve been playing within small box patterns all these years, all by feel and ear. And I’m embarrassed to admit this but I never bothered to learn the 5 penatonic positions which is like basic right? Once I learned them it’s like the whole neck is familiar and I’m never lost. The years of winging it obviously helps but I’m kicking myself for shagging it.

So I take a one on one lesson and we both had no clue where to start. An hour later at the end of the 30min lesson the teacher tells me to learn the vocabulary because I obviously knew what I was doing. At first I thought it was a waste. But he’s right. And I consider that the best lesson I’ve had. And it’s opened up so much more for me to learn on You Tube.
I have almost the exact same story. Started lessons in January, 35 years since my last one. Didn't know pentatonics either, mostly just winged it by ear. Worst part is I have a minor degree in music - took a bunch of classes in college and then switched to business (which was the right decision for me).

I've learned more in the last 2 months with in person lessons than I'd ever learn fumbling around YT without a cohesive plan. And with in-person there's accountability to practice and learn before the next lesson. Both from a pride standpoint, and financial. YT is still valuable, but more as a supplement.

And the desire to get better as a player is a direct result of getting the AX8 and how amazing it sounds - it reignited the desire to play!
 

Bman

Experienced
I have almost the exact same story. Started lessons in January, 35 years since my last one. Didn't know pentatonics either, mostly just winged it by ear. Worst part is I have a minor degree in music - took a bunch of classes in college and then switched to business (which was the right decision for me).

I've learned more in the last 2 months with in person lessons than I'd ever learn fumbling around YT without a cohesive plan. And with in-person there's accountability to practice and learn before the next lesson. Both from a pride standpoint, and financial. YT is still valuable, but more as a supplement.

And the desire to get better as a player is a direct result of getting the AX8 and how amazing it sounds - it reignited the desire to play!
Yes. The accountability is so true. I bought a set of electric drums for my mancave/studio and justified it by buying my son lessons. He had four and he WOULD NOT practice and so he’d spend half the time going over what was already taught. I gave up on him. Then... I put together a song list of the rythem he learned: Back In Black, When the Levee Breaks, Kashmir, and something by Imagine Dragons. Light went off and he loves it. But now I could see why practicing drum motions repetitively would be such a drag if you had no context.
 

Bman

Experienced
No, I mean that just like there are multiple patterns (boxes) for the pentatonic scale that "connect" all the notes, there are similar patterns for the diatonic scales (played with 3 notes per string), that similarly connect all the notes.
I’m not sure if this is what the teacher started to show me. They were triads or three string representations of a chord on the upper, middle and lower strings and he had me play them to a 1 4 5 basic pattern. I kept relating the fingerings to the full chords based of the CAGED system. It hindered what he was trying to get me to do because I kept calling out the chords and the CAGED pattern as I was playing, which was t his point. He wanted me to groove along and identify the root, 3rd and fifth. That’s when we realized we had a vocabulary problem.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I’m not sure if this is what the teacher started to show me. They were triads or three string representations of a chord on the upper, middle and lower strings and he had me play them to a 1 4 5 basic pattern. I kept relating the fingerings to the full chords based of the CAGED system. It hindered what he was trying to get me to do because I kept calling out the chords and the CAGED pattern as I was playing, which was t his point. He wanted me to groove along and identify the root, 3rd and fifth. That’s when we realized we had a vocabulary problem.
That's more like the chord relay I was talking about, except limiting yourself to only 3 chords as opposed to all 12 chords in a diatonic key.

As an example using the key of C major, the notes are:

C D E F G A B

A good example is doing triads within the key with the root note on the D string, the 3rd on the G string and the 5th on the B string.

Your triads in this case would be:

Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bmin Cmaj (tonic) Dmin

If you were to do the same using the A, D & G strings, the triads would be:

Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bmin

Get comfortable with using the basic triad fingerings for "sets" of 3 adjacent strings with the root on E, A, D and G strings all the way up the neck and back.

Once you are comfortable, then you can do the same with using 7th chords instead of triads.

Right now, you are using only the 1(I), 4(IV) and 5(V) chords... So they are only major triads.

As far as 3 notes per string, here is a diagram showing the patterns based on Gmajor (and just like pentatonic, these patterns can be "shifted" for each key, and repeat in cycles):

https://www.google.com/search?q=3+n...8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=kosmVWeWyOoaoM:

If you don't already know the notes in the diatonic scale, I would start with just learning the for one key before starting the scale exercises.

All the chords in the chord relay are defined based on the diatonic major by "stacking 3rds". So, (again in C) you get a Cmaj by taking the 1st note of the chord and stacking on the 3rd note (relative to the 1st) and then stacking on the 3rd (relative to the previously stacked note).

In C, you get C E G or 1 3 5, which are the scale degrees that spell a major triad.

If I want to know the notes for the D chord (still in the key of C), use the same process to get D F A or 1 b3 5, which are the scale degrees that spell a minor triad.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
By the way, I also really recommend learning the "horizontal" pentatonic scale patterns. They really help tie the "boxes" and make transitions between them much more fluid and natural sounding.
 

Bman

Experienced
By the way, I also really recommend learning the "horizontal" pentatonic scale patterns. They really help tie the "boxes" and make transitions between them much more fluid and natural sounding.
That’s what I saw on Rick Beato’s YT video. Going horizontally and challenge yourself to play within the 3 strings (high, middle, low) as you move. Then try skipping up and down. Just as an exercise.

Thanks BTW for the advice. And I apologize for hijacking the OPs thread.
 

Bman

Experienced
The thread died without anyone objecting to where it needed so I thought I'd respond back to you, Unix-Guy, through the thread. I'd PM you but not sure if you get tons of PMs or whatever which is why I'm reaching back out to you this way:

You've opened up pandoras box....and thank you: the 3 note per string is all over YT. I can easily memorize a major scale's 3 note pattern starting from the root on the 6th string. What I was a guy do in one of the videos, which I didn't quite understand was he seemed to be applying the same fretboard area but changing the scale by changing up the fingering. It makes sense but I didn't quite understand how he was moving the root or if he was changing it from major or minor. I'm sure if I was versed in theory it would be obvious but the vocabulary is holding me back. He goes over the 7 scale shapes right at the 7th fret. I THINK... this is what you are suggesting that I learn but I'm not sure. Here's the link: He goes into it about 1:40 into the video.

What I'm left wondering while I'm trying to learn is if I am able to play any key at this position by realizing which on of the 7 scale shapes the position applies to. And therefore am able to apply the same anywhere on the neck after understanding the 7 shapes.

Pm me if you'd prefer to not bore the general public, although it looks like at least one person is where I'm at from the posts above.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
What I'm left wondering while I'm trying to learn is if I am able to play any key at this position by realizing which on of the 7 scale shapes the position applies to. And therefore am able to apply the same anywhere on the neck after understanding the 7 shapes.
Yes, basically that is what he is describing.

I don't really like his approach as I think it could be confusing, but his point about developing an attachment to one key because that is the one you are learning is valid.

I would suggest sticking to one or two keys until you are fluid with the fingerings.
 

Bman

Experienced
Yes, basically that is what he is describing.

I don't really like his approach as I think it could be confusing, but his point about developing an attachment to one key because that is the one you are learning is valid.

I would suggest sticking to one or two keys until you are fluid with the fingerings.
OK... So I need to figure out what the 7 tonalities of the key are and what that means to me. I guess I'm trying to relate it to the box positions of the pentatonic (or now it's more than pentatonic because it include more notes?). In my mind I WANT to believe that each of these fingerings work with one of the box patterns depending on where you start from and of course they would change depending on where you start from. Once I can determine that is true then I can start to exercise using this and of course slip in the boxes just to reinforce what I'm learning and build familiarity. So my question to you is: Am I correct in assuming that the positions do relate to the boxes?
 

unix-guy

Legend!
OK... So I need to figure out what the 7 tonalities of the key are and what that means to me. I guess I'm trying to relate it to the box positions of the pentatonic (or now it's more than pentatonic because it include more notes?). In my mind I WANT to believe that each of these fingerings work with one of the box patterns depending on where you start from and of course they would change depending on where you start from. Once I can determine that is true then I can start to exercise using this and of course slip in the boxes just to reinforce what I'm learning and build familiarity. So my question to you is: Am I correct in assuming that the positions do relate to the boxes?
Ok - to start simple, the typical minor pentatonic is a subset of the Dorian mode of the diatonic major scale.

I've marked up the image below that shows all of the boxes and the mode of that pattern (relative to root of the pattern). For now just ignore the mode labels... These patterns are each of the 3-note-per-string "boxes".

The patterns flow up the neck in the following order (using mode names just to identify the patterns below):

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian

If you look at what I marked up, you can see the way they align. If you play the notes of the pattern labeled as Dorian but leave of the 2nd and 6th intervals you have the pentatonic minor.

In the key of G, the patterns would start on frets: 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14

C32D02B6-1900-45B0-B625-C1C2A12FEACE.jpeg

Edit:

Oops... I accidentally cropped out the labels on the top 2 boxes. They are Ionian and Dorian.
 

Stratoblaster

Fractal Fanatic
Observation: All I know is that I finally, after many years, learned to play "The Spirit Of Radio"correctly with all the exact chords/voicings with Alex himself teaching it on YouTube:


Conclusion: Yes, some days YouTube is the greatest thing ever invented...heh

Added Bonus: You can find his lessons on how to play "Limelight" and "Tom Sawyer" on YouTube too....:cool:
 

Rich G.

Experienced
I’ll be the fly in the ointment regarding guitar. I think it’s much better to get one on one instruction from a good teacher. The screen can’t closely watch you and catch bad technique. Those little course corrections are critical.
YouTube is usually my first stop when it comes to learning how to play a song. It's much easier for me to see someone breakdown parts of a song. That being said, I agree with you regarding instruction. I took lessons for four years when I started out, then 20 years later I took lessons for 6 months. The 6 months of lessons cleared up 20 years of accumulated questions. Some questions I didn't even know I had going into it, but the instructor would find the questions.
 
Top Bottom