[Solved (mostly) thanks to a Friedman ASM-12] FM3 sonic quandary: CLR versus real power amp and cabs: A review from a newbie, and Do I need a XiTone?

Whoa!!!! Thanks ALL!!! So many ideas have really helped. The Proximity effect really WOKE up the CLR on my Mark Day Recto preset!! I also ran through every FF IR in that link above from DLC86 that Fractal put together for us. The Recto 20 was the best IR from that zip file, but honestly there is a Leon Todd Marshall 4x12 IR out there that has really become a go-to cab for me (Thanks Leon!!!). Between bumping up the cab Proximity from "0" to "7" or so and Leon's IR attached below, and changing the CLR's DSP, my CLR is seriously moving some air now. I'll try adding Dynamic Depth too... Next step, I need to get some warmth out of the CLR - it's still a little cold (yes, real Rectos and Recto presets are always a little cold to me, but even some other warmer amps presets like the JTM45 are still sounding cold out of the CLR, when an amp like a JTM45 should come off with a ton of warmth... Any ideas for adding warmth to the CLR? Thanks again for so many great ideas so far!!
i know i'm beating a dead horse, but here goes, lol. What you are hearing from the CLR isn't necessarily cold, you're just heard mic'd tone being reproduced through a flat speaker, not amp/cab tone. If you put your ear next to your 412 where you'd mic it...it's probably going to sound pretty harsh/cold compared to sitting in a room with all the sound bouncing off off the walls/floor/corners not to mention you probably being off-axis to the speakers. End of the day, if you need cab tone, you have to use a cab. If you want extremely accurate mic'd representation of each cab and speaker you try, you want FRFR/the CLR.
 
i know i'm beating a dead horse, but here goes, lol. What you are hearing from the CLR isn't necessarily cold, you're just heard mic'd tone being reproduced through a flat speaker, not amp/cab tone. If you put your ear next to your 412 where you'd mic it...it's probably going to sound pretty harsh/cold compared to sitting in a room with all the sound bouncing off off the walls/floor/corners not to mention you probably being off-axis to the speakers. End of the day, if you need cab tone, you have to use a cab. If you want extremely accurate mic'd representation of each cab and speaker you try, you want FRFR/the CLR.
Got it... So, to make a JTM45 preset (or a Friedman Dirty Shirley preset - I own a real Dirty Shirley too) sound warmer and more like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley through the CLR then I need to find a better (for me, "warmer") IR to use with it? Not blaming the CLR, but something is to blame when I can't make it sound like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley. I'm assuming it's down to "warmer" IR choice now? FWIW, if I put my ear to either my 2x12 loaded with V30s or my 4x12 loaded with H75/M65 Creambacks and then I play my Dirty Shirley 40 - it IS warm no matter where I listen, in fact, its pretty warm all the way up to a couple inches from the speaker...
 
Got it... So, to make a JTM45 preset (or a Friedman Dirty Shirley preset - I own a real Dirty Shirley too) sound warmer and more like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley through the CLR then I need to find a better (for me, "warmer") IR to use with it? Not blaming the CLR, but something is to blame when I can't make it sound like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley. I'm assuming it's down to "warmer" IR choice now? FWIW, if I put my ear to either my 2x12 loaded with V30s or my 4x12 loaded with H75/M65 Creambacks and then I play my Dirty Shirley 40 - it IS warm no matter where I listen, in fact, its pretty warm all the way up to a couple inches from the speaker...
amp in the room....
 
Dynamic Depth adds a type of warmth (everyone's idea of "warmth" is different). Also go to the Speaker tab on in the Amp block and try different impedance curves. Turning up the Cab Resonance also adds thump and a type of "warmth".
 
Dynamic Depth adds a type of warmth (everyone's idea of "warmth" is different). Also go to the Speaker tab on in the Amp block and try different impedance curves. Turning up the Cab Resonance also adds thump and a type of "warmth".
Thanks Randall! Great ideas🤘
 
Got it... So, to make a JTM45 preset (or a Friedman Dirty Shirley preset - I own a real Dirty Shirley too) sound warmer and more like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley through the CLR then I need to find a better (for me, "warmer") IR to use with it? Not blaming the CLR, but something is to blame when I can't make it sound like a real JTM45 or Dirty Shirley. I'm assuming it's down to "warmer" IR choice now? FWIW, if I put my ear to either my 2x12 loaded with V30s or my 4x12 loaded with H75/M65 Creambacks and then I play my Dirty Shirley 40 - it IS warm no matter where I listen, in fact, its pretty warm all the way up to a couple inches from the speaker...
no, you're still missing my point. The CLR is giving you what an isolated, mic'd amp sounds like being played back through a very flat monitor. You're hearing what a mic hears. It's not meant to sound like an amp in the room, to get that you can tweak to add more bottom end etc, but the only real way to get it is to play through a cab in the room, unless....

you can accept the new paradigm, understand that you are finally hearing what your tone ACTUALLY sounds like and learn to love/enjoy your true tone.

All that being said, you're never going to make a single active 112 monitor (or two) sound like a 412, much less a 412 and 212 together.
 
FWIW, if I put my ear to either my 2x12 loaded with V30s or my 4x12 loaded with H75/M65 Creambacks and then I play my Dirty Shirley 40 - it IS warm no matter where I listen, in fact, its pretty warm all the way up to a couple inches from the speaker...

But your ear is not a microphone. The mic has a colored frequency response that does not exactly match what our ears hear. Different mics pick up the speaker in different ways.

Here's an interesting experiment for you. Put your Mesa/4x12 in another room, mic it, and listen to it through the CLR. Compare that to what you get with the FM3 and IR's thorough the CLR. When you do that comparison, you will have more of an apples to apples comparison.

Quoting myself (how narcissistic) but I think this bears repeating. I struggled with FRFR in comparison to my amps until I did this experiment. This really helped me to understand the difference between what I was hearing from the amp as compared to an amp model with an IR played through a very high quality FRFR monitor (the CLR). When I did this, I was able to dial in the tones from AxeFX to nearly duplicate what I was hearing from the mic'd amp. You'll also start to understand how much mic placement impacts the tone and how much the mic type and position can make with certain IR's.

Personally, I do not like the sound of an amp mic'd up with an SM57. It's not a very pleasing sound. Listening to an IR that was made with an SM57 is not something I enjoy. But there's a reason why the SM57 is used for guitar amps in live sound. One, they are durable and survive being dropped over and over by drunk sound guys at the end of the night. Two, they emphasize frequencies that help the guitar cut through the mix. But that sound may not be very pleasing outside the context of the mix.
 
I'm not enough of a mic expert to really answer that. As I try and listen to the various IR's that come with the AxeIII that have the mic name in the IR name, I do start to find some common patterns as to what I like. And then we get into mixing mics or mixing IRs... I like the classic mix of an SM57 with a Royer 121. The Royer adds some warmth that the SM57 lacks.

It really comes down to personal preference and finding what works for you. Real world experience with different mics in the studio environment helps a lot, but I do not have that background. Just home recording with lower budget mics (SM57, E609).

One thing that I always found amazing is how much difference moving a mic very small amounts really makes. Not only the distance from the speaker (proximity effect), but also moving it from the cone to the edge of the speaker. And then add in changing the angle of the mic in relation to the speaker. Infinite possibilities! Experiment and have fun!
 
Okay, so I've done multiple experiments recommended above and have discovered some things, but still question others... The CLR is an outstanding piece of gear, and I now "get it" that it isn't supposed to give me amp-in-the-room "feel" (even though it can be tweaked to get close if I want it to do that). Rather, it is a stellar monitor that excels at it's intended design of truly representing actual tone, but can also get close to simulating "amp-in-the-room" feel if I so choose. HUGE thumbs up to CLR!!! Now, as for the mic'ing issue, my real Dirty Shirley into my 4x12 sounds better "to me" mic'd up with an e609 and run through my board and output to my CLR (and QSC) THAN IT DOES right out of the 4x12 regardless of proximity distance from my ear-to-speaker-cloth. The tone from the CLR is so rich, lush, thick, full, and "better" than how it sounds coming straight out of the 4x12 itself. Incidentally, the CLR also blows away the QSC/CP12 in this regard. In this signal chain, the CLR rocks its ass off both in "cut-through-the-mix" and solo jamming scenarios. It's definitely a well-designed piece of gear with great internals (and probably a good amount of Baltic Birch? - I've got the older and heavier CLR)... HOWEVER, if I run the FM3 Dirty Shirley PRESET either into my CLR directly or into the MESA 2:90 and out to my real cabs (disabling cab simulation), and even if I mic'd those cabs and run that signal into the CLR, I still CANNOT get anything near the real tone of my real Dirty Shirley (or my Splawn or my JVM for that matter). So, my question remains, I KNOW the "true" tone of a Dirty Shirley and a Splawn Nitro because I own the real amps and have mic'd them into a CLR in the various ways that ethomas and jlynnb1 recommended above, BUT I am not getting anywhere near the "true accurate tone representation" of those three real amps with the FM3's corresponding presets of those amps... For clarification, I'm not talking about "true tone" when running those presets into my MESA 2:90 side (obviously, that signal path is full of extra tonal variables). I'm talking only about OUT1 into CLR with those presets. Thankfully, several of you have shown me the error of my "FRFR/amp-in-the-room preconceptions/perceptions/reality/physics of the situation" and all, and rightfully convinced me that the CLR is flawless/near flawless, and you have my gratitude for that.... All that said, SO what's up with those particular presets then? I was thinking I might sell my real amps when I got the FM3, but there's no way I can do that now. Does anyone have "better" "truer?" amp presets of the Dirty Shirley or the Nitro?
 
I KNOW the "true" tone of a Dirty Shirley and a Splawn Nitro because I own the real amps and have mic'd them into a CLR in the various ways that ethomas and jlynnb1 recommended above, BUT I am not getting anywhere near the "true accurate tone representation" of those three real amps with the FM3's corresponding presets of those amps...
Maybe there's a message about factory presets in there.
 
Okay, so I've done multiple experiments recommended above and have discovered some things, but still question others... The CLR is an outstanding piece of gear, and I now "get it" that it isn't supposed to give me amp-in-the-room "feel" (even though it can be tweaked to get close if I want it to do that). Rather, it is a stellar monitor that excels at it's intended design of truly representing actual tone, but can also get close to simulating "amp-in-the-room" feel if I so choose. HUGE thumbs up to CLR!!! Now, as for the mic'ing issue, my real Dirty Shirley into my 4x12 sounds better "to me" mic'd up with an e609 and run through my board and output to my CLR (and QSC) THAN IT DOES right out of the 4x12 regardless of proximity distance from my ear-to-speaker-cloth. The tone from the CLR is so rich, lush, thick, full, and "better" than how it sounds coming straight out of the 4x12 itself. Incidentally, the CLR also blows away the QSC/CP12 in this regard. In this signal chain, the CLR rocks its ass off both in "cut-through-the-mix" and solo jamming scenarios. It's definitely a well-designed piece of gear with great internals (and probably a good amount of Baltic Birch? - I've got the older and heavier CLR)... HOWEVER, if I run the FM3 Dirty Shirley PRESET either into my CLR directly or into the MESA 2:90 and out to my real cabs (disabling cab simulation), and even if I mic'd those cabs and run that signal into the CLR, I still CANNOT get anything near the real tone of my real Dirty Shirley (or my Splawn or my JVM for that matter). So, my question remains, I KNOW the "true" tone of a Dirty Shirley and a Splawn Nitro because I own the real amps and have mic'd them into a CLR in the various ways that ethomas and jlynnb1 recommended above, BUT I am not getting anywhere near the "true accurate tone representation" of those three real amps with the FM3's corresponding presets of those amps... For clarification, I'm not talking about "true tone" when running those presets into my MESA 2:90 side (obviously, that signal path is full of extra tonal variables). I'm talking only about OUT1 into CLR with those presets. Thankfully, several of you have shown me the error of my "FRFR/amp-in-the-room preconceptions/perceptions/reality/physics of the situation" and all, and rightfully convinced me that the CLR is flawless/near flawless, and you have my gratitude for that.... All that said, SO what's up with those particular presets then? I was thinking I might sell my real amps when I got the FM3, but there's no way I can do that now. Does anyone have "better" "truer?" amp presets of the Dirty Shirley or the Nitro?
First of all factory presets are meant to be a starting point, if you want to match a real amp I think it's better if you start from a blank preset and add just an amp block and a cab.
Then tweak the amp blocks authentic controls as you would do with the real amp.
If that still doesn't work you can start messing with advanced parameters
 
First of all factory presets are meant to be a starting point, if you want to match a real amp I think it's better if you start from a blank preset and add just an amp block and a cab.
Then tweak the amp blocks authentic controls as you would do with the real amp.
If that still doesn't work you can start messing with advanced parameters

This ^^^ I personally have never used a factory preset. I always start from scratch. YMMV
 
I really like the sound of my ASC-12 with most IRs. I know it's not true FRFR like a CLR but I like the way it fattens and flavours the sound.

To my ears, it retains the character of the IR but gives an amp like sound that I'm accustomed to from using regular tube amps for years.

I've also found when playing through my studio monitors, I can achieve a very similar sound by adding in a Far field IR - ie I use 2 IRs - the original one from my patch and a Far field IR mixed 50/50.

Not sure if this is helpful but I'm finding it works really well for me.
 
I really like the sound of my ASC-12 with most IRs. I know it's not true FRFR like a CLR but I like the way it fattens and flavours the sound.

To my ears, it retains the character of the IR but gives an amp like sound that I'm accustomed to from using regular tube amps for years.

I've also found when playing through my studio monitors, I can achieve a very similar sound by adding in a Far field IR - ie I use 2 IRs - the original one from my patch and a Far field IR mixed 50/50.

Not sure if this is helpful but I'm finding it works really well for me.
Thanks for the input. Have you ever played a CLR or XiTone to compare the ASC-12 to? In other words, do you prefer the ASC-12 over them?
 
Thanks for the input. Have you ever played a CLR or XiTone to compare the ASC-12 to? In other words, do you prefer the ASC-12 over them?

I've never played a CLR unfortunately.. it was on my possible list but became too impatient with the wait.

They are meant to be the bees knees of FRFR from what I know. I have played true FRFR through my studio monitors and the Axe is amazing this way.

I just really enjoy the extra Oomph that the Friedman has over my Event BAS monitors. They are both great but the Friedman feels closer to what I'm used to.
In some ways, maybe I need to get with the program and get used to the sound of a miked can through monitors!
 
You may want to check out the Accugroove Robusta or Latte. The Robusta is a little more raw than the Latte but both are pretty HiFi. I use to run my CLR with a Xitone cab that had a Eminence Beta LTA in it as a sub. The Xitone is powered by a Matrix GM50 which is really made for guitar and the LTA is a unique speaker that has a whizzer cone versus a tweeter. This combo sounded so good but I eventually replaced it with the Latte. I had been using a Latte but when the Robusta came out I immediately started saving and it has exceeded my expectations. At 700 watts it moves a lot of air and has plenty of Thump. Here is a pic of my current setup:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/post-your-axe-fx-iii-rigs-here.136754/page-43#post-1912711

The other thing I had to do in the past when using when using PA speakers was EQ out some of the high end. In the early days of the AXEFX, Ultra and AXEII there was always something about the high end that just bugged me and didn't sound right; however, this was mostly solved when I got the CLR. IMO, the CLR is the best FRFR solution for the money.

In full disclosure, you may want to do a search on Accugroove because there are some mixed opinions about the company. I've had nothing but good experiences with them but they are pricey.
 
I have a pair of 4x12s and a pair of CLRs.

I love the clarity and sound quality of the CLRs but I have thought about adding a sub to them as well. They sound great and they do have good clear low end down to about 70 Hz, ramping down from there. They don't have the same ultra low end boom you feel more than you hear of physically larger cabs though. Picture a large set of really great studio monitors and you'll get the idea. Plenty of clarity, plenty of body, and even maybe just a bit of the pants-shaking low end thing, but not quite the same as a real guitar cab.
 
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