Solid State Amps: light, but what are the problems?

[Hugomack]

I've noticed people expressing various problems over particular solid state amps - for example the new Matrix XT800, and the forthcoming Pro-Audio - I think because the latter is class D. I don't know much about solid state versus valve, and would be very grateful for people's comments, experiences and thoughts.

 

[octatonic]

Hi Hugo,

My issue with the Matrix was outlined here: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/32289-Matrix-XT-800-Review-and-up-against-a-VHT-2-50-2/page5

I am waiting for Matrix to get back to me with a modified XT800 that should address a couple of my concerns.
If it works out then I'll let people know.

Remember though that these amps are really designed to be PA- pushing a lot of speakers, running disco's and such.
It is not really that surprising to me that there are response issues with them- they are designed with a quick response to move more cones.

The issues I have with the amp are pretty minimal though- compared to something like the ART SLA series.
I am sure some folks won't find it as much of a compromise and out of the 20+ SS amps I've tried with the Axe it felt the best current SS solution without spending A LOT more money.
In my studio though, and an A/B test the Matrix just didn't match with the VHT 2:50:2- which admittedly is twice the price, and 3 times the weight so how fair a comparison is it, really?

The Pro Audio amp isn't really a product yet- they are on the website, sure- but plenty of people here (including myself) ordered but have never received anything.

That is my take on it- I am sure you will get a bunch of responses to this which will give you a variety of views.
Ultimately though you are just going to have to make the best guess you can and then be prepared to change it if it doesn't work for you.
I have zero faith in youtube demo's for making this particular decision- you need to be in the room, ideally with several options at once and make up your mind.
Even better if it is a blind test for someone in the room.
YMMV.

 

[Hugomack]

Hi James,
Very grateful for your response. I've had a read in the meantime - and posted a question relating to this. I thought I"d open a new thread to make the discussion a little more general as I'm sure there are others as new to all this as me - so your reply is really helpful. Thank you.

As I live in London, I'm looking at either the new Pro-Audio or the matrix - with weight in mind. I'll watch out for your post on the modified XT.

 

[octatonic]

No problem- happy to help.

I don't see Pro Audio/Class D getting their act together and personally I have no faith in them as a company.
Matrix are polar opposites in terms of professionalism- they have been great.

Something I've been considering is that Fractal/Atomic amps are tube- which says to me that they weren't able to get the right response from a SS option or didn't consider it worth attempting.
The more professional products from Line 6 feature a tube power section from Bogner.

I don't know of anyone else who has a history of getting tube amp response from a modeller + SS power stage so it will be a coup if they do it.
I'm very interested in what they come up with but I've so far not been happy with the trade off.

 

[paulmapp8306]

i had a bad experience with Pro Audio/Class D - after putting a lot of faith in them. enough said on that.

However, the amp itself is a cracker, and is Class a/B in operation. It uses a torroidal PSU rather than the Switch Mode PSU the Matrix uses - which accounts for the weight difference (6KG for the Pro Audio against 3.7KG for the Matrix).

Ive heard both - the Pro audio in their factory A/Bd against my VHt and the Matrix Ive had at home for the last week. Ive looked inside both with the permission of the relevant companies (Im an electrionics tech by Trade). TBH there isnt much in it between he products. the Matrix has the edge just on build quality - and a bit on design too. Matrix as a company are also much better to deal with. The pro Audio is cheaper though, and if Matrix tweek the XT800 for us geetarists it may well be a bit more expensive still (were a minority really for this type of kit).

So - personally Id take the Matrix over the Pro Audio even its current form. if they sort out some of James's issues it can only get a better option. If they dont, fine. its still the best SS solution Ive tried (and Ive tried many too - including some expensive Hafflers and Lab Gruppens) - and great value for the current cost.

 

[DADA]

I just love my XT-800 :lol My patches sound already ballistic.

It is already 99% close to a tube amp as stated by others. But if they can mod them even more (100% in behavior) I won't say no. So there is a fair chance that Andy from Matrix will solve this. The guy has made tens of thousands of amps in his 30 year career. And surely knows what he is talking about.

So if one company can solve this it will be MATRIX. Quite simple :ugeek

More important they WANT to solve this! I just hope they will not put Tubes in the amp :lol

Glad I followed the white rabbit!

 

[octatonic]

I just love my XT-800 :lol My patches sound already ballistic.

It is already 99% close to a tube amp as stated by others. But if they can mod them even more (100% in behavior) I won't say no. So there is a fair chance that Andy from Matrix will solve this. The guy has made tens of thousands of amps in his 30 year career. And surely knows what he is talking about.

So if one company can solve this it will be MATRIX. Quite simple :ugeek

More important they WANT to solve this! I just hope they will not put Tubes in the amp :lol

Glad I followed the white rabbit!

Hi Dada,

Glad you are digging the XT800.
Can I ask what you were using before you moved to it?
What sort of tones are you using?

 

[DADA]

Hi Dada,

Glad you are digging the XT800.
Can I ask what you were using before you moved to it?
What sort of tones are you using?

Indeed I realy like it! The sound, Class A/B, the weight, the connectivity, the service, the price, the size, the building quality, that it is designed and made in the UK, etc.

As mentioned in the other review http://forum.fractalaudio.com/showthread.php?t=31517 I had the ART SLA 2 before. And for patches it goes from clean to mid and high gain. The Lot! :mrgreen

Kind Regards

 

[octatonic]

Indeed I realy like it! The sound, the weight, the connectivity, the service, the price, the size, etc. As mentioned in the other review
I had the ART SLA 2 before. And for patches it goes from clean to mid and high gain. The Lot! :mrgreen

Ok so for you the SLA -> Matrix change was a good one?
Do you consider it a big improvement in clarity, definition and such?

Have you used any of the higher-end tube amps like the VHT/Fryettes, Engl E840/50 and such?

Are you UK based or on the continent?

 

[DADA]

Ok so for you the SLA -> Matrix change was a good one?
Do you consider it a big improvement in clarity, definition and such?

Have you used any of the higher-end tube amps like the VHT/Fryettes, Engl E840/50 and such?

Are you UK based or on the continent?

Please read the review for the differences XT-800 vs ART SLA 2 : http://forum.fractalaudio.com/showthread.php?t=31517

I think I know where this is heading. No the Matrix is NOT a tube amp with its delicate tube characteristics. Thats why I bought the Axe-Fx and with the XT-800 I can come very very close to these same delicate tube characteristics in a FRFR situation. With this setup and the Full Range speakers I also can enjoy the full delight of all the effects inside the Axe-Fx. So best of both worlds I think.

Reading the above I do not think you will record direct from the axe, but I can be wrong.

I just like good European made stuff. And here is a link why the building quality of the Matrix is stellar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnrqmBCDyg

Kind Regards from the Mainland.

 

[octatonic]

Please read the review for the differences XT-800 vs ART SLA 2 : http://forum.fractalaudio.com/showthread.php?t=31517

I think I know where this is heading. No the Matrix is NOT a tube amp with its delicate tube characteristics. Thats why I bought the Axe-Fx and with the XT-800 I can come very very close to these same delicate tube characteristics in a FRFR situation. With this setup and the Full Range speakers I also can enjoy the full delight of all the effects inside the Axe-Fx. So best of both worlds I think.

Reading the above I do not think you will record direct from the axe, but I can be wrong.

I just like good European made stuff. And here is a link why the building quality of the Matrix is stellar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnrqmBCDyg

Kind Regards from the Mainland.

Please don't second guess my motives.
I am not trying to prove anything- I'm just gathering data.

FWIW I do record direct with the Axe FX- monitor though Dynaudio BM6a's- I only use the VHT when rehearsing and playing live.
Recording direct with high quality monitors is a different situation to gigging with what is effectively a small PA for monitoring.
You have experience gigging the XT800- I don't- which is why I was asking the questions I was asking.

I have read your review post before- you don't mention previous tube amp ownership I don't think.

The reason I asked if you were in the UK is I may be going to take a trip to see the Matrix guys with my rig and show them what I personally am looking for with the VHT rig.
Part of the problem is they have very little idea of what a guitarist is looking for.
I was going to invite you along if you were close and it was convenient for you.

 

[paulmapp8306]

James does record direct with the Axe, and TBH he was just asking questions about how you use the setup. FRFR isnt like a traditional Amp/Cab. If it was we'd all be doing it that way.

The Matrix is more than capable of driving FRFR cabs/speakers as thats pretty much what its designed to do. for us amp/cab guys SS amps in general dont work as well as valve ones for whatever reason that might be with each amp. the Matrix is good - damn good, but it isnt all things to all people. If you want a SS amp for whatever reason - for FRFR, for a lightweight solution with real cab - or anything else it is probably the best available currently anywhere near its price bracket - but I think what James is saying is if you want 100% authentic tone and response, then the Axe isnt quite there - and consequently any current SS amp solution isnt either.

 

[DADA]

Please don't second guess my motives.
I am not trying to prove anything- I'm just gathering data.

FWIW I do record direct with the Axe FX- monitor though Dynaudio BM6a's- I only use the VHT when rehearsing and playing live.
Recording direct with high quality monitors is a different situation to gigging with what is effectively a small PA for monitoring.
You have experience gigging the XT800- I don't- which is why I was asking the questions I was asking.

I have read your review post before- you don't mention previous tube amp ownership I don't think.

The reason I asked if you were in the UK is I may be going to take a trip to see the Matrix guys with my rig and show them what I personally am looking for with the VHT rig.

Part of the problem is they have very little idea of what a guitarist is looking for.
I was going to invite you along if you were close and it was convenient for you.

I think I have to say sorry. I thought this was developing in to another tube/SS amp discussion. So thanks for clearing this up.

I think it is a brilliant idea to take your VHT to the Matrix guys. Everything that will furthermore improve this amp is welcome I think. The only question I have is if this "amp problem" is not an "Axe-Fx problem" because you use the VHT to correct/enhance the signal coming out of the Axe. I hope other guitarist with tube amps will be there also because different guitar players have different wishes. So please do not alter the XT-800 in a VHT or Atomic clone with possible sound coloring aspects.

Regards

 

[paulmapp8306]

DADA, we think its the Axe not quite there, but rest assured any changes will be for a guitar orientated spin off of the XT (XT800G anyone). The core amp you have will not change. Both myself and James are talking to Matrix almost daily at present to improve the amp for guitarists, be that Axe users, 11r, PODs, Digitechs etc etc. Of course it may not work or be cost prohibitive but they are willing to try.

 

[octatonic]

I think I have to say sorry. I thought this was developing in to another tube/SS amp discussion. So thanks for clearing this up.

I think it is a brilliant idea to take your VHT to the Matrix guys. Everything that will furthermore improve this amp is welcome I think. The only question I have is if this "amp problem" is not an "Axe-Fx problem" because you use the VHT to correct/enhance the signal coming out of the Axe. I hope other guitarist with tube amps will be there also because different guitar players have different wishes. So please do not alter the XT-800 in a VHT or Atomic clone with possible sound coloring aspects.

Regards

No worries- I certainly understand why you thought it might be heading that way but I was choosing my words carefully in the hope that it would not.

I won't be suggesting they alter the EQ of the amp at all.
I don't think the problem is to do with colour or EQ.
As I understand it any mods will be opt-in anyway.

 

[DADA]

DADA, we think its the Axe not quite there, but rest assured any changes will be for a guitar orientated spin off of the XT (XT800G anyone). The core amp you have will not change. Both myself and James are talking to Matrix almost daily at present to improve the amp for guitarists, be that Axe users, 11r, PODs, Digitechs etc etc. Of course it may not work or be cost prohibitive but they are willing to try.

OK then. I would like to suggest that Lightingboy is invited to this XT-800 upgrade project. He had some first hand experience with the Pro Audio Amp like Paul and is for what I know a pro-guitarplayer and has tube amp experience. So Paul and Octatronic please invite him instead of me.

 

[paulmapp8306]

And he also has an XT800. Used it at a gig last Saturday (which was a poor gig apparently for several reasons) and is doing so again this weekend, He has been comparing the amp with his Peavey 60/60 and another SS amp during this week.

Spoke to him on Monday, and will do so again after the weekend for his thoughts.

 

[DADA]

Thats sounds great. So hopefully Lightningboy is also part of this XT-800G project. I also suggested this thought to Matt. So now we have 1 sound engineer totally in to tubes and a pro-guitar player thinking more in the middle of the tube and SS amp world, round up with a enthusiastic guitar player wo has a background in electricity and likes tubes and SS amps. This is a good project team to help MATRIX with their ultimate modeling amp.

Do not let the team further grow. 3 persons is the best wenn developing new insights!

Good luck, much fun and Keep us informed here on the forum.

Regards

 

[Hugomack]

This has got to be one of the fastest growing and seriously useful threads....

Creeping back down to my simpler level, if the Axe does faithfully replicate valve amp sounds with all their smoothness and so on, then as I think DADA says, an amp that faithfully reproduces what comes from the Axe, and speakers which are full range and don't colour the output (FRFR I guess), the resulting sound should sound exactly like what's been modelled.

I'm very happy with the FOH aspect, as I think the Axe makes it harder for less interested/able sound men to mess it up. My concern to achieve an on-stage 'feel' that is as encouraging to good playing as with my current analogue (and ancient, very heavy) set-up. I find it's the same as with vocalists - who simply can't sing unless they can hear themselves, and are very seriously discouraged if what they hear isn't as good as what they're actually doing. If my sound in my own ears isn't what I think it should be, it really puts me off; it's distracting, but also dampens the excitement that's necessary to play well. I do hope the Matrix can be fully guitar'ised.

 

[DADA]

I agree with you. I also have some question marks about the need for the here wanted tube characteristic enhancement since the 10.3 upgrade of the Axe-Fx. But if some change of the amp make it more adaptable to the Axe-Fx and make it react even more like a tube amp I am totally in! Nevertheless it would be a pity if this will have a negative influence on the neutral and broad frequency respons of this amp. So please stay away from this part of the amp!

Regards