so... talk me out of artificially increasing the bass in a celestion g10 greenback ir?

mistermikev

Experienced
The other day I bought all the celestion 10" irs. (I have many many irs... but didn't have any celestion 10s)

Similar to many of the other celestion (brand) irs... I find myself asking "where the bass?" They give you a very ltd number of mics... and r121 captures aren't all that bassy so I find myself wanting to artificially bump it up a hair.

I have some "bass enhancement" irs I got from buying the TAF big box set... curves produced vai a snapshot of a neve console, and other "4x12" conversion irs included with that cab pack that would give the bass a small bump.

I can't help but feel this might be "the forbidden" or perhaps there are good reasons not to do it... and figured the ir experts here might enlighten me? Also can't help but notice the lack of any boosting mechanisms in cab lab... which is perhaps a hint that fractal creators thought "why would anyone want to ever do that?"

please advise.
 
The other day I bought all the celestion 10" irs. (I have many many irs... but didn't have any celestion 10s)

Similar to many of the other celestion (brand) irs... I find myself asking "where the bass?" They give you a very ltd number of mics... and r121 captures aren't all that bassy so I find myself wanting to artificially bump it up a hair.

I have some "bass enhancement" irs I got from buying the TAF big box set... curves produced vai a snapshot of a neve console, and other "4x12" conversion irs included with that cab pack that would give the bass a small bump.

I can't help but feel this might be "the forbidden" or perhaps there are good reasons not to do it... and figured the ir experts here might enlighten me? Also can't help but notice the lack of any boosting mechanisms in cab lab... which is perhaps a hint that fractal creators thought "why would anyone want to ever do that?"

please advise.
I don’t think Celestion breaks their speakers in before they capture them, so they tend to lack low end. An easy fix in the cab block is raising the Proximity parameter. It’s just a low end boost, but it should help you get more body out of a thinner sounding speaker.
 
If it sounds better, try it.

An IR is just a specific way of capturing a static EQ curve for a speaker/cab with a mic in a room. It's not special. It's totally linear. If it's close to what you want and a little bass boost gets you the rest of the way there, go for it.

I will say to listen loud before you "commit" to anything that can't be adjusted on the fly...things sound like more of a smile curve when they're loud.

Also....you don't need to use another IR or anything "fancy" unless you just like it. The Fractal cab block has a preamp section that has a 3-band EQ. Try that first.
 
I don’t think Celestion breaks their speakers in before they capture them, so they tend to lack low end. An easy fix in the cab block is raising the Proximity parameter. It’s just a low end boost, but it should help you get more body out of a thinner sounding speaker.
that is a solid observation (break in). Have been thru that myself a few times but didn't even think of it.
yes, proximity would do the trick and I appreciate you pointing that out... i guess on the one hand that would be easier to 'reverse' on demand... at the sm time I might use this ir in or outside the axe fx so was thinking I wanted to record it into an ir mix itself.
very much appreciate you taking the time mr york!
 
If it sounds better, try it.

An IR is just a specific way of capturing a static EQ curve for a speaker/cab with a mic in a room. It's not special. It's totally linear. If it's close to what you want and a little bass boost gets you the rest of the way there, go for it.

I will say to listen loud before you "commit" to anything that can't be adjusted on the fly...things sound like more of a smile curve when they're loud.

Also....you don't need to use another IR or anything "fancy" unless you just like it. The Fractal cab block has a preamp section that has a 3-band EQ. Try that first.
right on. yes, proximity effect... well I can def hear in the ir that they are lacking... it's a drastic contrast when compared to any number of other r121 mic captures in my collection. was thinking that I'd record in the bass bump as opposed to having to remember to change cab params each time I load it... in fact depending on how that goes I might go do it to a number of celestion cab mixes I use.
I suppose if you are just boosting a range... you aren't necc losing any peaks/curves just extending them north vol-wise (assuming there are no peaks curves in the relevant bass boost ir). thank you for the reply/advice.
 
I suppose if you are just boosting a range... you aren't necc losing any peaks/curves just extending them north vol-wise (assuming there are no peaks curves in the relevant bass boost ir). thank you for the reply/advice.
That's actually pretty much always true.

EQs are (generally) linear processes. Their effects just add. The order doesn't matter and doing it with 1 filter/band or 30 doesn't matter, just the final shape.

So, boosting bass won't actually change any of the peaks/troughs already in that range, it'll just make the affected bass frequencies louder with the peaks/troughs shifted up accordingly.

There are some EQ plugins that also model the saturation involved in running hardware too hot. But, they're actually not all that common. AFAIK, neither the 3-band in the cab block nor the PEQ block do that. (I'm pretty sure the saturation that's also available in the cab block's preamp section is separate.)
 
That's actually pretty much always true.

EQs are (generally) linear processes. Their effects just add. The order doesn't matter and doing it with 1 filter/band or 30 doesn't matter, just the final shape.

So, boosting bass won't actually change any of the peaks/troughs already in that range, it'll just make the affected bass frequencies louder with the peaks/troughs shifted up accordingly.

There are some EQ plugins that also model the saturation involved in running hardware too hot. But, they're actually not all that common. AFAIK, neither the 3-band in the cab block nor the PEQ block do that. (I'm pretty sure the saturation that's also available in the cab block's preamp section is separate.)
right on. I guess ultimately I'm just surprised I don't hear more folks in the sm boat as me... just wanting to tweak an ir a hair... can't help but wonder why we ultimately don't see a lot of ir tools to accomplish... but I get it... prob a lot of dif ways to compensate elsewhere. thanks again for reply.
 
right on. I guess ultimately I'm just surprised I don't hear more folks in the sm boat as me... just wanting to tweak an ir a hair... can't help but wonder why we ultimately don't see a lot of ir tools to accomplish... but I get it... prob a lot of dif ways to compensate elsewhere. thanks again for reply.
You can add me to the list. I don't use any IR tools, though, just EQs (because, again, IRs are EQs).

I treat the IRs as a starting point as a capture/example of something close to a speaker/cab I think I'd want and then tweak from there. It comes from a mix of the Preamp section in the cab block (just the 3-band EQ and high/low cut filters) and the Output EQ.

I'm not saying my way is the only/best way. But...that's exactly what I would do if I were recording a "real" guitar amp in a studio.

Find a cab I want to use.
Stick a mic (or mics) on it and make sure they're where I want them.
Run them through a preamps that probably have EQs and definitely have level controls.
The first thing it hits in the DAW is probably going to be Pro-Q3 (because it's my favorite EQ plugin).

The same basic thing happens when your sound guy mics your cab at a venue.

The fractal (or other modeler) version of the same process is:

Pick one or more IRs I want to try out.
Level & EQ with the IR and preamp controls in the cab block.
Add a PEQ block if necessary.

Moving the microphones around in relation to the speaker and moving the cab around the room both work as EQs....and those are things I can't directly control for an IR....I have to use whatever someone else recorded. Which means that things like mic & room placement and preamp selection (which is tiny in the grand scheme of things) are part of picking an IR. Everything after that is basically the same except that I have to use the Fractal output parametric EQ instead of Pro-Q3 (and honestly, it's been fine).

That way of doing it just made sense to me.

The other advantage of doing it this way....I've never bought an IR. There are so many included cab IRs that if you can't find a good starting point there....either you have extremely specific taste (and should shoot your own IR of a cab you probably own) or you need more practice using EQs.
 
You can add me to the list. I don't use any IR tools, though, just EQs (because, again, IRs are EQs).

I treat the IRs as a starting point as a capture/example of something close to a speaker/cab I think I'd want and then tweak from there. It comes from a mix of the Preamp section in the cab block (just the 3-band EQ and high/low cut filters) and the Output EQ.

I'm not saying my way is the only/best way. But...that's exactly what I would do if I were recording a "real" guitar amp in a studio.

Find a cab I want to use.
Stick a mic (or mics) on it and make sure they're where I want them.
Run them through a preamps that probably have EQs and definitely have level controls.
The first thing it hits in the DAW is probably going to be Pro-Q3 (because it's my favorite EQ plugin).

The same basic thing happens when your sound guy mics your cab at a venue.

The fractal (or other modeler) version of the same process is:

Pick one or more IRs I want to try out.
Level & EQ with the IR and preamp controls in the cab block.
Add a PEQ block if necessary.

Moving the microphones around in relation to the speaker and moving the cab around the room both work as EQs....and those are things I can't directly control for an IR....I have to use whatever someone else recorded. Which means that things like mic & room placement and preamp selection (which is tiny in the grand scheme of things) are part of picking an IR. Everything after that is basically the same except that I have to use the Fractal output parametric EQ instead of Pro-Q3 (and honestly, it's been fine).

That way of doing it just made sense to me.

The other advantage of doing it this way....I've never bought an IR. There are so many included cab IRs that if you can't find a good starting point there....either you have extremely specific taste (and should shoot your own IR of a cab you probably own) or you need more practice using EQs.
all just one variation or another on gain staging. strings are eq, fingers are eq, vol control is an eq, tone control or active eq is an eq, cable is an eq, pedals freq have eq on the way in and then another after a feedback loop, amp typically has a couple eqs, speaker is an eq, mic is an eq... etc etc.

also... while on the subject - there is only 1 fx = delay. everything is a delay... that's all there is. delay is a delay, reverb is a delay, chorus is a modulated delay... flanger - just another delay etc etc.

I can't help monkeying with the irs... it's basically mixing. I don't think I stand a shot at all at improving on the irs i have from york, ownhammer, dr. b, valhallir.... but I have a lot of irs that are "close" to good... and I am enjoying it...
I figure there's even a small chance I'm tuning my ears along the way. If I ever have to record one of my tubes amps again... I think I'll have a lot better initial idea of what might sound good.

anywho
 
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