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So I played through a Two Rock combo yesterday.....

papaflann

Inspired
I'm another vote for AxeFx + power amp + guitar cab.
Axe with an FRFR never sounds quite natural to me, but run an Axe through a Matrix power amp with a good sounding guitar cab (with cab sims off) and I'm there.
Sounds good to me man. My next option is to pick up a two rock cab and a Matrix 1000 and give that a go. That will run me about 12-1300 versus about 2500 for a two rock and cab. I've read up on some 4cm methods with a legit amp and a lot of guys enjoy that, but I don't want to limit my tonal options by committing to a two rock, bogner, top hat, div 13 etc...

By going with the Matrix and a quality cab you really can go in whatever direction you want and not have that tonal color of a certain amp....

I have never run my axe through an actual cab though, to date. I"ve only been a K12 guy...I"ve been really happy with that and my band has enjoyed having a lower stage volume via me running direct (we use k12's as mains as well). There is definitely something sexy about having a legit amp on stage though, but if you're playing smaller venues it may cause a lot of sonic interference that could be avoided via running FRFR. At recent gigs, I've just had a k12 as my monitor and run copy out 1 to out 2 and give out 1 to house and out 2 as my monitor with a house feed. I felt comfortable at those shows..I never missed a cab on stage, but after hearing that two rock, it woke me up....
 
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mongey

Inspired
The axe fx is not an amp ,if you are living and dying by amp in the room tone buy an amp.

I still have my recto rig even though I love my XL. They both are great at what they do.

An axe fx rig has many benefits over a tube amp , but it isn't a tube amp. It won't fill a room Like one.

But it will give you limitless great tones with limitless effects options in one box.

Personally I rather embrace the positives of each and go with them rather than chase the dragon of making one sound like the other.
 

Finaldo

Inspired
An axe fx rig has many benefits over a tube amp , but it isn't a tube amp. It won't fill a room Like one.
I get what you're saying and agree with getting the best out of whatever you're using. Use what works for you, it's not a competition. Regarding the part of your post I quoted, a powered monitor can fill a room just as well as a tube amp. They can sound very similar too, with the right cab IR.
 

papaflann

Inspired
i'd have to put it down to the two-rock cab being way better than the K12
I don't doubt that a Two rock cab is better suited for legit guitar tones than a K12, but it was actually a two rock combo. It was the Studio 35, single 12".

It wasn't just the cab it was the tone of the guitar. It just sounded more alive than my Axe tones. I don't know if that vitality was due to the "amp in the room deal" or my Axe fx tones suck? People say my guitar sounds good, but I don't think it's that great. I'm a perfectionist, I think everything sucks.

I have never ran my Axe through a legit guitar cab though. I have been researching Matrix amps this weekend and I will likely get one in the near future. I plan to get a nice 2x12 vertical cab either a two rock or Top hat etc and power it with the Matrix and give it a go.

It seems like 50% of Axe users utilize this method? I see a lot of pictures where guys are running 4-12 cab with a power amp.

I can get a nice 2x12 cab for around 500 and a Matrix for about 750. It's a 1300 gamble I gotta try. If that won't do it, then it's two rock head and run the Axe as a 4cm and get the best of both worlds. We're talking about some serious cash though if were heading in that direction.

I appreciate everyone's input. Happy Easter.
 

papaflann

Inspired

Thanks Yek. I've seen that video before and it's posted by Voodoo labs. Isn't it a promo for Oz and the Voodoo ground control?

It's a killer video though. Oz is one cool cat. A super heavy hitter. You know it's crazy that he's a melodic virtuoso guitar player and you see his shows on Youtube etc and there's hardly anyone there. That brought me to this conclusion: The better you get at guitar the less people come to your show. I've been to EJ shows and Satch and others and it's usually smaller venues and it's only a bunch of dudes. I'm not trying to get off subject here, but it is an interesting point.

The end of the argument is this: It's always about the song. If the song six but the guitar playing is good, no one cares. If the song is amazing and it has below average guitar playing, it could potentially fill Wembley.

Please don't massacre me on the above comments.
 

mbrown3

Inspired
Thanks Yek. I've seen that video before and it's posted by Voodoo labs. Isn't it a promo for Oz and the Voodoo ground control?

It's a killer video though. Oz is one cool cat. A super heavy hitter. You know it's crazy that he's a melodic virtuoso guitar player and you see his shows on Youtube etc and there's hardly anyone there. That brought me to this conclusion: The better you get at guitar the less people come to your show. I've been to EJ shows and Satch and others and it's usually smaller venues and it's only a bunch of dudes. I'm not trying to get off subject here, but it is an interesting point.

The end of the argument is this: It's always about the song. If the song six but the guitar playing is good, no one cares. If the song is amazing and it has below average guitar playing, it could potentially fill Wembley.

Please don't massacre me on the above comments.
Totally right. For many guys like Satch, Vai, Malmsteen, etc, the songs serve the guitar playing, not the other way around. As a guitarist, I like listening to them...for about 10 minutes. Then I get bored. They're amazing and impressive and excellent players...and I just don't care because their songs just aren't very good.

I remember Phil Keaggy one time saying, "Incredible, incredible guitar players are a dime a dozen. What's far more rare are people that actually have something to say with their music; who understand that the song matters most." Another way of putting it was said by Carlos Santana one time (something like): "You can play fantastic guitar and there will be a bunch of guys standing around in awe, but if the song doesn't touch you there won't be a woman in sight."
 

Tonic

Inspired
A Two Rock Emerald was my main amp when I discovered the AxeFx. I'm quite happy having gone digital but have yet to find the tone and response I got from the Two Rock. Even with the added drive controls, I don't think the AxeFx quite captures things.
The same for me...
My tubes amps crushes the axe fx
I Also have a two rock crs and it sounds and feels better than any configuration with the axe fx.
CLR or Matrix plus 2x12 Two Rock or Matrix NL 12.
It sounds flat and not like my Two Rock.
I bought two axe fx 2 (mk1 and XL) and ended selling both!
Effects are great though (but not transparent in 4CM)
 
I don't doubt that a Two rock cab is better suited for legit guitar tones than a K12, but it was actually a two rock combo. It was the Studio 35, single 12".

It wasn't just the cab it was the tone of the guitar. It just sounded more alive than my Axe tones. I don't know if that vitality was due to the "amp in the room deal" or my Axe fx tones suck? People say my guitar sounds good, but I don't think it's that great. I'm a perfectionist, I think everything sucks.

I have never ran my Axe through a legit guitar cab though. I have been researching Matrix amps this weekend and I will likely get one in the near future. I plan to get a nice 2x12 vertical cab either a two rock or Top hat etc and power it with the Matrix and give it a go.

It seems like 50% of Axe users utilize this method? I see a lot of pictures where guys are running 4-12 cab with a power amp.

I can get a nice 2x12 cab for around 500 and a Matrix for about 750. It's a 1300 gamble I gotta try. If that won't do it, then it's two rock head and run the Axe as a 4cm and get the best of both worlds. We're talking about some serious cash though if were heading in that direction.

I appreciate everyone's input. Happy Easter.
There are people who feel the same way you do. There are people who are trying to do things to help people who feel the same way you do not feel that way any more.

Without getting ahead of myself, you should shoot me a PM and lets talk further. :D
 

PacoCasanovas

Fractal Fanatic
The same for me...
My tubes amps crushes the axe fx
I Also have a two rock crs and it sounds and feels better than any configuration with the axe fx.
CLR or Matrix plus 2x12 Two Rock or Matrix NL 12.
It sounds flat and not like my Two Rock.
I bought two axe fx 2 (mk1 and XL) and ended selling both!
Effects are great though (but not transparent in 4CM)
there are two things....

1) The rear ported cabinet of your TwoRock amp - I wondering why most IRs were just made at the speaker cone and not trying to get the speaker concept in it's full glory....it will give you just a fraction of what is really going on. I have some micing tricks most people wouldn't pay attention to, with rear or side microphones (check the Daxweiler IRs from 2014, there was a special rear corner mic in use)

2) The ODS concept (which is also the fundament in a two rock amp) has something that not entirely fit into the AF2 parameter concept - most amps were actually fit in there perfectly because they were some variations of basic marshall or fender circuits. At the point were you get to different tone stacks at the same time inside a circuit, the AF2 need to bypass one of them, you never will find a ODS-HRM design with the actual tonestack working since there is always the last TS in use, in this case the post gain TS aka HRM tonestack.
Try to set ithe default TS on pre position and re-check again? If you're already sold your AF2, I might post you a clip with the differences....

Cheers
Paco
 

Tonic

Inspired
Hi Paco, Thanks for your help.

I'm a sound engineer and I record a lot of guitar cabs so I know that with IR's you are missing a lot (Room influence is a big part of the sound).

It's not just with my Two Rock amp and cab, I have dozen of tube amps and cabs and with tubes amp plus cab it's not in the same league than Axe FX plus power amp and guitar cab.
I have made a lot of comparaisons and nothing sound like an amp plus a cab (in the room or recorded with mics).
I understand it's impossible to have the same result, but for my tastes and fingers it's just flat sounding.
In FRFR IR's are the weak link for me though.

But yeah, Axe FX can sounds good too of course... I just prefer (a lot) tube amps it breathes and lives not just an illusion.
The other guitarist in my band is still playing an Axe FX with a Matrix power amp, compared with my Friedman, Bogner or Two Rock he sounds really thin and flat.

No problem I can understand some peoples prefer Axe FX, I give my opinion after years of experimentation with the Axe FX.

there are two things....

1) The rear ported cabinet of your TwoRock amp - I wondering why most IRs were just made at the speaker cone and not trying to get the speaker concept in it's full glory....it will give you just a fraction of what is really going on. I have some micing tricks most people wouldn't pay attention to, with rear or side microphones (check the Daxweiler IRs from 2014, there was a special rear corner mic in use)

2) The ODS concept (which is also the fundament in a two rock amp) has something that not entirely fit into the AF2 parameter concept - most amps were actually fit in there perfectly because they were some variations of basic marshall or fender circuits. At the point were you get to different tone stacks at the same time inside a circuit, the AF2 need to bypass one of them, you never will find a ODS-HRM design with the actual tonestack working since there is always the last TS in use, in this case the post gain TS aka HRM tonestack.
Try to set ithe default TS on pre position and re-check again? If you're already sold your AF2, I might post you a clip with the differences....

Cheers
Paco
 

PacoCasanovas

Fractal Fanatic
Hi Tonic

For Live (direct recording with the AF2 is just for my own pleasure, I wouldn't call this professional recording) I use my own amps, which were also ODS influenced over a custom audio closed back 2x12" cab with V30s - no channel switching, no fx pedals before the amp. This is just me, because I adore the sound from my amp so much.....

At home I'm not able to play an amp, it's a rental appartement and I guess I would be in big trouble if I would try to turn it up...so the AF2 is by far the best compromise I ever had. I would use it live as my post amp FX rig over a separated speaker system only contains the wet FX signal
 

Tonic

Inspired
Hi Tonic

For Live (direct recording with the AF2 is just for my own pleasure, I wouldn't call this professional recording) I use my own amps, which were also ODS influenced over a custom audio closed back 2x12" cab with V30s - no channel switching, no fx pedals before the amp. This is just me, because I adore the sound from my amp so much.....

At home I'm not able to play an amp, it's a rental appartement and I guess I would be in big trouble if I would try to turn it up...so the AF2 is by far the best compromise I ever had. I would use it live as my post amp FX rig over a separated speaker system only contains the wet FX signal
Yeah!
It's a good compromise, and yes effects are really good.
That's what I'm missing the most!
 

jlynnb1

Fractal Fanatic
if you are saying the Axe is a compromise and sounds dull or flat or lifeless or can't hold a candle to your tube amps.....i have to wonder about you being en engineer. Have had numerous engineers/producers be blown away by the Axe. Top tier professionals use and prefer the Axe. I don't think they make "compromises". Calling bs....
 

Tonic

Inspired
if you are saying the Axe is a compromise and sounds dull or flat or lifeless or can't hold a candle to your tube amps.....i have to wonder about you being en engineer. Have had numerous engineers/producers be blown away by the Axe. Top tier professionals use and prefer the Axe. I don't think they make "compromises". Calling bs....

Please calm down Man !
I give you my opinion, i can accept that it works for some producers or guitarists.
I dont have any problem with that.
I was using axe fx ultra then the 2 and then the XL.
For me its a digital compromise yes, it can sounds great but for me nothing can beat an analog rig with a good mic+preamp.
For modern sounds and produced sounds it sounds and feel very well.
Not for my tastes and it colours the tone in 4CM in all of my amps .

But dont worry I Will not loose time to fight here.
Its a pièce of gear to make music and thats good if it works for you ;)
 

Cooper Carter

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
Do you play your Axe through a power amp and cab? If you're just messing with FRFR and trying to replicate the sound and feel of amp in the room, you'll never be satisfied.

If you had been playing the Two Rock through an isolation set up, and hearing the miced up result, then you'd have a fairer comparison.
This and Cliff's are the only posts needed in response.

You don't prefer the sound of a "real" tube amp. You prefer the sound of a cab in front of you to a full range miced sound. Luckily, the Axe can do both.
 
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