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So I played through a Two Rock combo yesterday.....

barhrecords

Axe-Master
I still play my real amps / cabs quite a bit.

With two CLR's if I crank up like my amps, it's pretty frickin' close people :)

Before the CLR's though, I had to go pwr amp -> cab with the Fractal to get the amp experience.

It's only natural to treat a powered speaker like a "monitor" and not like an amp. Crank that shit up! (Most likely will have to make tone adjustments though!)
 

jlynnb1

Fractal Fanatic
volume def helps....i never really notice anything different with my CLR cranked on a stage.
 

Chronos

Experienced
I have my own custom cab that I absolutely love to play through with a power amp hooked up to my Axe-Fx. Playing with a cab right in front of me has such an effect that a close mic signal sound can't do for you when it comes to just having fun playing, and it just sounds amazing no matter what the patch.

That said I often go back to playing the Axe-Fx direct and playing around with impulses for fun because there are tones I can't get with a single cab in the room for my setup.

I end up playing one way or the other for days on end. It's almost something similar to ear fatigue, and they just crave to hear something different and really become enticed by the change from the close mic type sound of direct to the cab in the room. Very different stuff, and both very awesome in their own regard.
 

Tone Seeker

Power User
I tried a K10 once and fwiw (i.e. it's not a direct comparison to your K12) I struggled with the mids. Accuracy in the mids is so important for guitar tones in a FRFR solution. My tones were noticeably more pleasant when I went back to my studio monitors and an old set of Tannoy dual concentric speakers.

Terry.
 

brianv4

Fractal Fanatic
I gotta say from reading the OP, it's amp in the room you're missing.

if you sat in a control room with that LP connected to an A/B box (one side to the two-rock, the other an Axe-Fx) and did a blind listening test through studio monitors, I think you'd see that the sound and feel of both setups are very impressive. You'd probably have a hard time positively identifying which rig is which.

Take Cliff's advise and get a power amp with an open back cab (and the LP). you'll have a more versatile setup than just the two-rock.
 

Bix

Member
This is a bit of a hijack, but for those that are using a power amp and cabinet, which speaker are you using? I've got a fender mustang 3 v1, and the effects return sounds good, but I'm wondering what speaker would be versatile enough to work with lots of different models? This setup does definitely satisfy the amp in the room itch though.
 

Stratman68

Fractal Fanatic
So, just a thought. Have you tried Cliff's recommendation for running two cabs with one cab delay set @ .060-.070? Also, I'm using the new Cab IRs in Cab Pack #10. This seems to sound "bigger" to me...and closer to the AITR.
Sincerely Apologize to OP for jumping in but.............. to do the delay do you need both cab blocks in the preset or does Stereo\UltraRes (which shows 2 cabs) give you the same effect?
Thanks
 

papaflann

Inspired
Question for the OP: what Two Rock combo did you try? the Studio pro 22?
Hi. It was the studio 35 I believe. Single 12". Man that thing was loud as hell. I couldn't believe the db's comjng out of that thing. I had it on 1 on the master and it was hard to handle.....killer amp tho
 

zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
This is a bit of a hijack, but for those that are using a power amp and cabinet, which speaker are you using?
Use one you like and know well. :) Mine has G12T-100s which are essentially a 100W G12T-75. The T75 was the stock speaker on a certain era of Marshall cabs, a lot of people abhor that speaker. It's one of my favorites, though. I have been using that cab since way before I had an AFX so I know it well.

It's just not going to be as versatile, though. That is exactly the downside to traditional rigs, AxeFx or no. I see guys all the time who have a collection of heads and one or maybe two cabs. All those amps are going to be colored the exact same way. Some are going to agree with that cab better than others. That's why when someone says "I owned amp X and amp Y, X DESTROYS Y!!" my first response is okay what cab are you running? My cab is not going to be ideal for, say blues or jazz. I *can* dial in satisfying stuff for all kinds of genres, but I very frequently put parametrics or GEQ blocks for non-rock and metal style with that cab. And open vs closed? You probably want two.

So, go with something that serves your primary style first and foremost. Other stuff is going to be a compromise, just like those guys who buy a $3000 high gain amp head and can't get a usable clean tone.
 

papaflann

Inspired
Sincerely Apologize to OP for jumping in but.............. to do the delay do you need both cab blocks in the preset or does Stereo\UltraRes (which shows 2 cabs) give you the same effect?
Thanks
I've done it both ways, but I've found my best results to use the stereo ultrares but with the same IR in both slots but delay one of them .006 (not .06 like the comment above). It could be .004 but I can't remember. But i'm sure some guys have had success using two cab blocks with different ir's and delaying one of them. I've noticed with all of Tyler Grunds recent patches he has used the Cab pack 8 ir's the 57 and the 121 but in two cab blocks. I"m running a preset right now with that same config and it does sound good. Everybody has their own special sauce to get what they're going for.
 

favance

Power User
Sincerely Apologize to OP for jumping in but.............. to do the delay do you need both cab blocks in the preset or does Stereo\UltraRes (which shows 2 cabs) give you the same effect?
Thanks
I use two cab blocks...nothing special, just drop two of the new cab UR ir's in two cabs and set one for a delay w/.070. From the man himself:

"My secret to realistic cab sounds is Delay. Use two IRs in stereo or two cab blocks and put a small amount of delay on one (using the Delay parameter in the Cab block). I like around 0.06 ms. You may like more or less. Producers experiment with placing mics at different distances to enhance the recorded guitar tones. This is the same as using a small amount of delay. Adding a bit of delay introduces some comb filtering which creates notches and peaks in the response which, in turn, adds a sense of "space" to the tone. Try it." And: "If you have any cab packs try mixing the "Back" IR with one of the regular IRs. I use more delay when doing this, 0.1 ms or more. I lower the level on the back IR by a couple dB. This gives a nice "in the room" open-backed cab sound." (from the Wiki)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I've found quite the opposite, actually being amazed at how much "better" I think my Axe sounds.

Buddy left his Deluxe Reverb over here last weekend, so naturally I had to plug it in and jam a little, because hey... who can resist any new music gear sitting in their living room, right ? lol

Long story short, sounded good, just like Deluxe's I've owned in the past, and plenty full with the expected "amp in room" because its an amp in the room. But, and this is a but so big Sir Mir A Lot should take notice... I couldn't really get my typical Fender tone I've come to love on the Axe (Big thanks to Mr. Tyler Grund for that). The "Testify" patch, which actually isn't a Deluxe, has that fantastic SRV cranked amp tone, that I really couldn't push the DR to, due to some volume constraints as I live in a condo. Neighbor are pretty cool, but there is a limit.

Likewise, was over another buddies rehearsal space and was jamming on his sweet JVM (really have come to love that amp and if I wanted to still own a Marshall its likely what I'd go for, amazing tones, versatility and bang for the buck) and while its always awesome standing in front of a 1960B cab and feeling that air blowing your pant legs, I really can't stand that type of volume anymore. Rehearsal space is an artist space mostly, converted old warehouse, so kind of poor acoustic, concrete floors, just drywall separating spaces, just was really fatiguing listing to it I found. Didn't want to keep playing.

When I come home to my Axe, I get this great cranked amp tones but at any volume I want. Its not to say it sounds any better than hardware amps, but within the scope I've been able to use real amps anymore, I'm not really able to get the cranked tones I'm after.

Maybe if I dialed in all 6's on the DR, changed out the speaker, and had no concerns about volume it would sound better, but short of doing that, the Axe actually gives me a better tone in my everyday settings.
 

redbud

Inspired
I use studio monitors with a group of presets. When I feel like amp in the room I have a second set of presets without cab block, run this through a matrix gt800fx into a pair of thiele cabs. Instant gratification.
 

Finaldo

Inspired
I was at my guitar tech's shop last weekend and brought my Axe-Fx II and an FBT Verve 12ma and dialed it as close as I could to his 70s Super Reverb. We got the Axe-Fx to the point, without a lot of tweaking, that it sounded and reacted so close to the Super Reverb that I couldn't really tell the difference. And my tech, who is obviously completely familiar with his amp, thought the Axe-Fx sounded and played the same as well. If there were differences, they weren't negative differences. I'm sure there are people out there that could tell the difference, maybe even while blindfolded and all that, but neither sound was better. They were just too close to my ears to be able to tell them apart, even while playing. It pretty much blew me away.

I think it's easier to match a clean up in tone and feel than it is for an overdriven or hi-gain amp, but once I get my Egnater head fixed, I'll try and see if I can match the tone and feel of that in the Axe-Fx.

To get back to what the OP was talking about... It really comes down to the speaker impulses. I think it would be interesting to see what an IR of, say, a Mesa Recto 2x12 cab would sound like with a flat mic in the same position your ear would be when listening to your real cab, recorded in a room big enough where you wouldn't get any reflections from the floor or the walls. Though, that'd probably only sound right to you if you had your ear the same distance from the FRFR monitor as the mic was from the cab when the IR was recorded, and it would sound different to everyone else in the room. What a hassle, right? :)
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
I had a buddy that gigs all the time come bye and play several tube amps and then the axe fx
during 13.4 he said all the amps he played here sounded identical to the fenders he personally had owned.

I am looking into renting a theater here locally for an entire day and when I do taking
the axe there and bringing in a great bassist I know and great drummer and inviting
several other guitar players to show up at specific times and record and
check out the axe fx they would be bringing their own rigs or playing
some choice tube amps there id bring and id want them to bring their own rig
and mic that and record that and the axe fx II and see if they can go back and
work with me to dial in something compatible on the axe.

Im not sure those other players have played one or not but
one is a jazz and country monster and the other guy is well versed in
blues and 3rd cat I had in mind is a slide expert and blues expert playing for buggs henderson
for years..

If I got them here and had a great band on hand then those guys could gel instantly as they are seasoned
id have levels on several different players and they could play about as loud as one would normally at a club
each one of them knows about the level they play live small club or big place. Id want to get them to run through some tunes
and at volume and record then be able to play that back and on stage and set levels..After they get some takes just use those
to dial in the axe with.. Dialing up the axe and measuring the playback volume and comparing to the axe volume.
Once those are about the same you should be able to get the same results. That would be the part that caught the other players attention
I think they might be equally interested in hearing the technology and trying to stump it..

Tell them the idea is bring tube amps and purposely prove they are better and show me with that mindset
then see of you can match it using the new technology.
if they do and can then id imagine it would interest them especially if none have tried one yet.

I want a slide player a jazz and country monster and a blues player.
The slide player does blues as well and the blues player does rock and the country and jazz monster
can do it all including rock and classics so he could cover several genres of music alone
and the slide player could as well this would be May anyway at least which gives me time
to plan. If I could even just get the Jazz monster and the bassist and drummer to show up
and play and record some then play that back and have them try to match it in axe fx.
Save some patches and learn the dynamics of the machine in a live situation.

I need to make some calls find out if I can get theater in May if I got it
all day and night and got some great players to show up and recorded them all
that would be one way to get real life pros to come play live and to dial the best they can in
on axe or dial it in while they play explaining how it works too them and letting them adjust settings
then when they say thats it right there save that name it after them and move on..
I think with the right planning this would be one way to really see the axe in action in live band settings
and we would set them up and save them as such. I know someone that plays 8 string guitar and he and that drummer
would be going at it thats another range id cover if he showed up.

I have some planning to do I want to bring in several great players and specialists in their field.
have them tear it up record it all play that back and have them try to recreate it using the axe and
record that and do AB blind tests.

Record both then play them back in different order see who can tell the difference.
if they can barely tell or not at all then everybody might raise a brow and a beer to that.

Id like to rent the theater and have some axe perts the to help program
the 8 string player is an axe pert hes a great player and likes to take it too the stage
So he is a triple threat great ears hands and knows the axe well.

That drummer could put him into the zone he does metal as well.
There are several genres of music im not great at
country jazz being two of them and metal being the 3rd
and 8 string being the 4th.
I am not a slide expert either 5 different things that those people are all excellent at.
so its worth trying to make happen id record it all and film it and have them record the tube amps and their own rigs and
the axe fx. Dialing things up best they can there having a tech there more proficient then I on axe would be great.
Crucial is more like it.. I can see getting several players all different styles but things in common with each other
all great players and recording it all and using the tube amp and personal rigs as playback to dial in the axe fx.

Record it film it and see if they can fool themselves I know it can be done. I dont have CLR wedges yet but
im going to get them and check them out.. By the time this happens I might have a pair of them.
working towards that..

I would get an eye opening lesson in person from some of the better players in north Texas
and expose them too axe if they dont know about it already if they do great show me something.
If not show me something anyway.. Id get as much if not more from them then vice versa but
if they were truly floored as well as I was then win win..
Id learn something and get several pros dynamic ranges
from acoustic to metal. Country to Jazz
Chet atkins to Zappa thats a wild range of players there.
Ive been dreaming this up if another person I know is here during that time
he is a walking jethro tull act and many other types of music as well
so he can record too. 6 possible different players.. worth trying to schedule.

one of which has played the axe and said all the fenders sounded great and spot on too him
as well vox and marshall.

He recorded my Dumble ultra phonic amp here and on playback I dialed that in using a wrecker
and could not tell the difference on the lead side of things.

That was 13.4 at that and 18.4 now so much since then even.
I hope to get these people to show up I know other locals that can and work there
so they are close and might show up and help.

Ill work on it some see what comes to light..
So far those who have played mine say it sounds like the amps they owned personally.
I feel the same way and I see others here chiming in stating the same thing..

should be fun im going lease the place and even if we just watch movies at night
it would be well worth going in for 4 hours and doing this before hand and then watching a film or 3.

Theater has nice acoustics the marx brothers actually performed there in the day its a neat place.
I hope to be able to pull some players in..
 

aleclee

Power User
A Two Rock Emerald was my main amp when I discovered the AxeFx. I'm quite happy having gone digital but have yet to find the tone and response I got from the Two Rock. Even with the added drive controls, I don't think the AxeFx quite captures things.
 
I'm another vote for AxeFx + power amp + guitar cab.
Axe with an FRFR never sounds quite natural to me, but run an Axe through a Matrix power amp with a good sounding guitar cab (with cab sims off) and I'm there.
 

Rex

Legend!
...the one thing i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is: So if the fractal is superior, then why don't we see Mayer and Oz Noy and other great players using them more often. I know there were some pics of Edge having a couple in his monstrous rack (boobs) but do they know something we don't?
Lots of first-rate players use Fractal products. Lots of them don't. Lots of them use Marshalls, and lots of the don't. If the Two-Rock is superior, why don't we see great players using them more often? Do they know something we don't? :)

The point is, there's no product that can claim to be used by most guitar players. That doesn't mean that all products are bad.
 
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