So are the Red Wirez cabz that much better than stock cabs

Scott Peterson said:
It's baffling to me that folks cannot grasp this concept (not pointing fingers at any one person specifically). If you have ever heard your amp/cab recorded, you lean very quickly that what you hear from the cab standing 4' away or so is NOT what the mic is sending to FOH or the recording desk.

I think a lot of people have simply not heard what their rig sounds like recorded or to FOH. In my encounters with guitar players I think far too few of them have really done this experiment.

Guitar players are why most bar bands sound bad - I'm not talking about the musicianship here, just the sound. It is rare that I see bar bands that mic the guitars. Unless the club is tiny or acoustically magical you are guaranteed a bad mix. We saw a blues band on Saturday that was a perfect example of this. Standing just to the side of the stage you could barely hear the guitar. In front you could hear it mixed well. We knew the drummer in the band so after their first set we told him that we couldn't hear the guitars and that they should throw a mic on it. I think everyone could guess what happened instead. The guitar player turned up. Of course. D'oh!
 
Scott Peterson said:
If you have ever heard your amp/cab recorded, you lean very quickly that what you hear from the cab standing 4' away or so is NOT what the mic is sending to FOH or the recording desk.

I was like that. When I first got my Ultra, I was not very impressed initially. But reading about what you just wrote above, I decided to do an experiment. Jay released an Eminence 1258 IR at one point. I happen to have that same speaker in my 2x12 cab. I recorded a small clip of my clean patch with Jay's IR, then recorded another clip with the same patch, no cab block but using my Eminence equiped cab. That's when the light went on.

Personally, I'm on the same page as Scott as far as the RedWire IR's are concerned: I like the choice I get, and I have a lot of fun trying them out, like an engineer would do in a studio. And yes, they do sound great.
 
I bought the Big Box AC30 and Big Box Mesa Recto today and I'm very happy with them. You have so many options available to you and it is so easy to throw them in a slot (giggity) and let her rip (goo). I have all ten slots loaded up and now and I could easily load up another ten or twenty.

JT
 
So what's the deal now with someone claiming they sounded a bit 'blanket'y' when used as singles, or did I just dream that ?
 
VegaBaby said:
So what's the deal now with someone claiming they sounded a bit 'blanket'y' when used as singles, or did I just dream that ?

Ummm, wasn't me. They don't sound 'blanket'y' to me by any stretch, no more than anything else. And really, there is no such word as 'blanket'y'. :D
 
Can anyone do an A/B with two similar cabs... one Red Wirez and one Stock... all other settings being the same? Pretty please!!!
 
Scott Peterson said:
VegaBaby said:
So what's the deal now with someone claiming they sounded a bit 'blanket'y' when used as singles, or did I just dream that ?

Ummm, wasn't me. They don't sound 'blanket'y' to me by any stretch, no more than anything else. And really, there is no such word as 'blanket'y'. :D
No, definitely wasn't you. Not sure who put that thought into my mind :?
 
VegaBaby said:
Scott Peterson said:
VegaBaby said:
So what's the deal now with someone claiming they sounded a bit 'blanket'y' when used as singles, or did I just dream that ?

Ummm, wasn't me. They don't sound 'blanket'y' to me by any stretch, no more than anything else. And really, there is no such word as 'blanket'y'. :D
No, definitely wasn't you. Not sure who put that thought into my mind :?

It was me. It's when I compared the SYX version of the Redwire IR with the regular version used with Kefir in a DAW.
 
Deltones said:
It was me. It's when I compared the SYX version of the Redwire IR with the regular version used with Kefir in a DAW.
Right... There you are ! How do they compare in the blanket department to the stock Axe IRs then ? Just curious... Thanks !
 
There are so many options when it comes to what mic and where it is placed that I'm sure that you can find some that would sound "Blankety".(is that a word scott?) But in general they sound very clean and clear. I chose neutral to bright cabs to use for now because you can always eq out a little top end but it's hard to add it in later.

As someone said earlier they sound a little better than the stock cabs but the real "magic" is in the fact that you can pick from so many different versions of the IRs and get exactly what you want.

JT
 
I used RedWirez cabs to dial in my main sound so far (Marshall 800) and have to say that it has gotten me closer to the tone I'm looking for than the stock cabs. Are they better? Probably not but the vast array of choices for one cab is amazing!
 
VegaBaby said:
Deltones said:
It was me. It's when I compared the SYX version of the Redwire IR with the regular version used with Kefir in a DAW.
Right... There you are ! How do they compare in the blanket department to the stock Axe IRs then ? Just curious... Thanks !

The stock IR are worse in the blanket department (to my ears) and I never use them. My main clean IR is/was Jay's Eminence Legend 1258. I really like that one. As for the crunch tone, I think it is another of Jay's IR but I'm not sure about that one. It's not stock though, that's for sure.

Take note that the Redwire SYX cabs DO sound good. But to me, they are a little more muted than the WAV files.
 
If Red Wires' full WAV files contain room reflections, it's a different animal from the SYX version, which can't contain "room".

The additional room reflections will add high frequency energy and a sense of space. For me though, this is not a variable I want to contend with in the context of cab sims in the Axe-FX.

Apples & oranges. Different objectives. And Red Wires, in providing room files, has given the option to add in a 2nd cab with room reflections captured separately.
 
Brian G said:
If Red Wires' full WAV files contain room reflections, it's a different animal from the SYX version, which can't contain "room".

The additional room reflections will add high frequency energy and a sense of space. For me though, this is not a variable I want to contend with in the context of cab sims in the Axe-FX.

Apples & oranges. Different objectives. And Red Wires, in providing room files, has given the option to add in a 2nd cab with room reflections captured separately.

Brian and Jay are on target here. The 'blanket' is apples to oranges; the wave convolutions are NOT the same as the sys cab IR's WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT cab vs. room. One is basically a short reverb convolution, the other is a cabinet IR.

I treat the room IR as a cab IR and the mix of what it offers with a close mic'd IR is what made me happy. YMMV (as it has for others).

But confusing the issue by tossing around a term like 'blankety' is simply spreading mis-information.
 
Scott Peterson said:
[quote="Brian G":36kv1f3k]If Red Wires' full WAV files contain room reflections, it's a different animal from the SYX version, which can't contain "room".

The additional room reflections will add high frequency energy and a sense of space. For me though, this is not a variable I want to contend with in the context of cab sims in the Axe-FX.

Apples & oranges. Different objectives. And Red Wires, in providing room files, has given the option to add in a 2nd cab with room reflections captured separately.

Brian and Jay are on target here. The 'blanket' is apples to oranges; the wave convolutions are NOT the same as the sys cab IR's WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT cab vs. room. One is basically a short reverb convolution, the other is a cabinet IR.

I treat the room IR as a cab IR and the mix of what it offers with a close mic'd IR is what made me happy. YMMV (as it has for others).

But confusing the issue by tossing around a term like 'blankety' is simply spreading mis-information.[/quote:36kv1f3k]

Well put. It's like trying to use room mics on a drum kit as your main drum tone it's not what it's used for. But a combination of close and room miking it all starts to make a lot of sense.
 
Maybe it would help to clarify some variables a bit here.

In terms of subjective impressions of different IR responses, the selection of the mic used for the capture, the distance of that mic to the sound source, and the angle of the mic relative to the sound source each introduce certain predictable characteristics.

What most of us are listening for, when it comes right down to it, is the relative tonal balance of the speaker + cab. Is it bassy or lean, are the mids recessed or forward, is there an upper-mid presence peak, and are the highs bright or subdued? We're also evaluating our like / dislike of specific IR's (and any output medium, for that matter) thru the "lens" of how the patch is set up. Since there is no "absolute standard", our final preferences are ultimately subjective.

But there are some constants, that affect IR's fairly consistently:

1. Virtually all mics suffer from proximity effect, to varying degrees. When the mic is close to the sound source, the lows are boosted or emphasized compared to hearing that sound source from a greater distance. It can be helpful if you're looking for "ooomph", but it's a coloration. (The polar pattern of a specific mic is a general indicator of how much it will tend to be affected by proximity effect - omni mics tend to have less, and cardiods tend to have more. Generalizing, omni's tend to have a more natural response, but bring in more ambient sound.)

2. To a lesser extent, close micing can also come across as having an elevated high frequency response. This is typically not as prominent as the increase in low frequencies, and in terms of listener perception, tends to come across more as a tendency toward "hardness" or piercing highs. This perception is tied in part to the fact that when we hear sounds naturally in a real space, at a distance from the sound source(s), and due to a bunch of factors to do with acoustics, we hear a high frequency response that gently rolls off, but not to the extent that it sounds dull, but natural.

3. Mic to source distance notwithstanding, the aim & angle of the mic to the driver produces radically different tonal characteristics. This is particularly true with guitar speakers, because of their narrow directivity at upper-mid & higher frequencies, and also because of their peaked response in the upper mids. Jay has constantly beaten the drum that unless you like listening to your guitar cab on axis (angled or raised and pointed directly at your ears), you're unlikely to prefer IR's captured on axis, and particularly if they're close-mic'ed.

Since these variables are predictable in a general way, you can use them to fine-tune in on what works for you.

Here's the deal though: you have to set up patches for the type of sound capture used in that specific IR. Patches balanced tonally for a close-mic'd, on-axis IR will sound very dull with some of Jay's off-axis IR's. I'll bet that Jay configures his patches for those IR's, and that if you audition his patches with on-axis captured IR's, they'll sound unbearably bright.

Likewise, if you play in a tight orchestra pit, and angle your cab at you to hear yourself well in a tight space, you'll tend to set up patches that are softer sounding.

Scott's patches sound great at performance levels; at low volumes, not so much. Not his objective. He tweaks his tones for stage level, not bedroom playing.

I find most of the stock 4 x 12's, and many of Red Wires close-mic'd IR's to be too "woofy" in the bottom, due to proximity effect. But sometimes it works for heavier lead tones. But understand you're using a predictable coloration to get to where you want to be. You can't use such an IR to evaluate your FRFR monitor and complain that the monitor sounds unnatural.

I'm really liking some of Red Wires IR's, and they've given us something that I haven't seen before - choices in mic positions and angles for the same speaker. (I also like some of the stock IR's and some of Jay's; some of the stock IR's very accurately capture mic proximity colorations, and you have to then EQ for those.)

I'd like it if Red Wires offered a few more off-axis captures, and probably more like 30 degrees rather than 45. Offering IR's captured with the Earthworks calibrated mic should be a step forward, IMO.

Choices are the stuff that progress is made of - bring 'em on.
 
Brian G said:
I'd like it if Red Wires offered a few more off-axis captures, and probably more like 30 degrees rather than 45. Offering IR's captured with the Earthworks calibrated mic should be a step forward, IMO.

Choices are the stuff that progress is made of - bring 'em on.

+1
They definitely got off to a good start in the right direction.
Hope they continue to offer quality Ir's that work for us.


http://www.duaneramelot.com
 
Scott Peterson said:
But confusing the issue by tossing around a term like 'blankety' is simply spreading mis-information.
If you are referring to me , since I used that word (blankety), I'm not tossing around anything or spreading anything. It was a simple question, since someone used the term 'blanket' before. It's great for you if you've found the perfect IRs, but all I asked for were some more opinions.

I've recorded guitars for many albums and am certainly aware of how mics, placement etc. sound. Again, all I wanted was some further input before purchasing something.

If your post however was not regarding me, my apologies and please disregard it. Otherwise I'd appreciate if you wouldn't spread mis-informastion about me.
 
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