Smashing Pumkins, "Siamese Dream"?

fuzzyoctaves

fuzzyoctaves

Inspired
Wondering if anyone has a good III preset for these tones. I went through every post on this forum and the Axechange and didn't find anything. I played around with trying to get the OpAmp Muff sound, but didn't really get it by trying the obvious approach of changing the transistor of the Pi Drive. I had a decent one for the II that I'll recreate and post here if no one comes up with anything.
 
I reviewed every Siamese Dream preset I could find including old II ones. I took pieces that I liked of each and mushed them together. I added in a ton of EQ and Cooper Carter's Mimiq pitch block to simulate multiple guitar tracks. I did my best to match it to a Cherub Rock guitar stem I found on youtube. This is only the main riff muff tone.

I'm wide open to improvement suggestions and I'll keep at it and post any improvements.
 

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  • Siamese Dream Muff Tone.syx
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fuzzyoctaves said:
I reviewed every Siamese Dream preset I could find including old II ones. I took pieces that I liked of each and mushed them together. I added in a ton of EQ and Cooper Carter's Mimiq pitch block to simulate multiple guitar tracks. I did my best to match it to a Cherub Rock guitar stem I found on youtube. This is only the main riff muff tone.

I'm wide open to improvement suggestions and I'll keep at it and post any improvements.
Click to expand...
Thanks man! That is a top 10 album for rock guitar tone! I will check it out asap!
 
For sure there is a lot going on and it is really hard to decipher the signal to noise in the recounted tales. I have done a lot of reading - here are the best reads I have found:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-a-with-butch-vig/398145-1993-smashing-pumpkins-siamese-dream.html
https://web.archive.org/web/2014111...he-sonic-diary-of-the-smashing-pumpkins/40242
http://www.kitrae.net/music/big_muff_op_amp_history.html

I consider SD to be the pinnacle of guitar tone. And while some may call that hyperbolic, I think there are enough who would agree to make this a valuable pursuit. I am not concerned with recording my own version of SD. I just want to crank up my rig and sound as close as possible. At the end of the day, I have gotten closer by using my ears over trying to replicate specific gear. It is still very much a work in progress and I'd love to hear the changes and tweaks that you think bring it closer.

I totally get that layering is a huge part of this tone and included a "Mimiq" block as a first step. I am working on a version that approximates Butch Vig's approach:

"run 2 guitars left, 2 guitar right, and then one up the middle:
Usually when I bounce, I try to make it sound like it will in the final mix, so I will eq/compress and sort of "pre-mix"...
When I put a guitar up the middle, it usually has more mid-range crunch, or try to find a eq pocket that gives definition to the chords or riff...and it's usually in the mid-range, 500 hz to 2k..."

I think that 5 tracks like this, with heavy eq to delineate them might be a partial solution, but so far, I haven't improved on the tone in the preset...
 
Here is my current working 2.0 version that thickens it up quite a bit by using 5 rows - two panned left with varying lowpass filters, two panned right with highpass and one up the middle with a 2k boost. I mixed all 5 together and then I sandwiched a "Mimiq" block with two Enhancer blocks (!). I also made some small tweaks to the muff. Overall, I like this version better, but I haven't tried to match it to the Isolated Cherub Rock track yet.
Still a work in progress...
 

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  • Siamese Dream Muff Tone v2.0.syx
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What guitar do you use to make this one?

My old bandmates love this album, so I figure I should try the preset lol.
 
Budda said:
What guitar do you use to make this one?

My old bandmates love this album, so I figure I should try the preset lol.
Click to expand...

Good point. I am using a PRS HFS humbucker on a SuperStrat.

Here is my 2.1 version that is as EQ matched as I can get it using Reference 2 in Logic. Beyond that, I added in a track of muff that bypasses the amps and cabs. It is fairly low in the mix, but it gets a bit more of that thick buzz sound. For solo jamming, I'd up the low end a bit.

It has a long way to go to match the isolated track, but it is much better than it was and better than anything else I have found...
 

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  • Siamese Dream Muff Tone v2.1.syx
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Spent about a half hour with this. Intro (Neck) scene and Main Riffs scene. Humbuckers...

Would need to spend more time researching and tweaking to get the texture closer. The pickups will mater too.
 

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  • Siamese Dream Muff Tone (MCP) (15.01).syx
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Moke said:
Spent about a half hour with this. Intro (Neck) scene and Main Riffs scene. Humbuckers...

Would need to spend more time researching and tweaking to get the texture closer. The pickups will mater too.
Click to expand...
Cool! I didn't think to use tone capture. FWIW, I'd pay for a pro Siamese Dream preset (hint hint wink wink). I imagine that it would be reasonably popular.
 
The tone on Cherrub Rock is one of my favorites. My band has covered it for years, and I have struggled for years to get a usable live sound with the somewhat known formula of muff fuzz and JCM800, both analog rig and digital rigs. I could get it sounding great to me, but never cut well with band, always sounded like I was lost in the mix.

One day I decided to just get is sounding right for the mix, and eliminated the fuzz and went with higher gain on the amp. My last tube rig is a Bogner GF45, I run it on 69 mode higher gain with boost on and an Eternity pushing it, cuts and sounds great. In the Axe I use the Smallblock cranked with input boost, and also great. I don't use the lead scene anymore since we added a second guitarist to the band, and I like his leading playing better than mine, plus I sing a lot too so my brain isn't over worked with processing to many things at once. :p

I usually play my Lincoln Brewster strat with the DB boost on and the mid boost cranked. Really hits the amp harder but has that single coil character. But, sounds great with a LP or my Santana too. The LB strat has become my main gigging ax, super light and very flexible.

Does sound just like the album? Nope! Does it sound great in a live mix? My band mates think so.
 

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  • Siamese Dream Muff Tone (MCP) (15.01).syx
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I'll be honest, every time I try and recreate the Siamese Dream tone I don't like it. The fuzz and amp are so hard to get right together and while you get some of it, you don't get all of it.

I have better results just using a higher gain amp. Billy used a Diezel quite a bit, so that may be a good starting point. It may not nail the fuzz tone perfect but for a single guitar I think it works better.
 
Jarick said:
I'll be honest, every time I try and recreate the Siamese Dream tone I don't like it. The fuzz and amp are so hard to get right together and while you get some of it, you don't get all of it.

I have better results just using a higher gain amp. Billy used a Diezel quite a bit, so that may be a good starting point. It may not nail the fuzz tone perfect but for a single guitar I think it works better.
Click to expand...


We must have been posting at the same time.

I originally played it with the VH4 model, and had a Diezel Paul that I used for it. Sold the Diezel, along with about 6 other badass amps a couple months after I got the AF3 in 2018. Just sold the GF45 this weekend, all Fractal for me now.
 
I just revisted this, sort of on accident. I wanted to play around with some fuzz and a treble boost based on some recent exploring on youtube. I built this off of the Hiwatt amp block I just tweaked for Cygnus.

I perked up a little when I switched from a FF to a muff with the TB on. So I saved to an empty preset and started tweaking and going back and forth with my original Cherub preset (also tweaked for Cygnus).

I like them both, but I'm digging the little bit of fuzzy craziness on the new one.

So here is the new preset, and the original preset updated for Cygnus. I build my presets to sound best through a SD PS170 into a forte style 1x12 with a cream alnico, since that is how I play live. So, you might want to adjust speaker impedance and drive settings (mine are ss amp and no compression), and choose an IR that you like. I use the Factory 161 and 162 mixed since it sounds closest to my live rig, but I haven't tried it through my FR monitor yet.
 

Attachments

  • Cherub Rock.syx
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  • New Cherub.syx
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I always got spot on SD tones using the low input of my 2204 and a Big Muff or Red Llama pedal. I've never tried with my AXE3 though I'm sure it's achievable. I'm not sure if the low input of a JCM 800 is modeled in the Axe but that's the best pedal platform I've used with a real amp.
 
ducmike said:
I just revisted this, sort of on accident. I wanted to play around with some fuzz and a treble boost based on some recent exploring on youtube. I built this off of the Hiwatt amp block I just tweaked for Cygnus.

I perked up a little when I switched from a FF to a muff with the TB on. So I saved to an empty preset and started tweaking and going back and forth with my original Cherub preset (also tweaked for Cygnus).

I like them both, but I'm digging the little bit of fuzzy craziness on the new one.

So here is the new preset, and the original preset updated for Cygnus. I build my presets to sound best through a SD PS170 into a forte style 1x12 with a cream alnico, since that is how I play live. So, you might want to adjust speaker impedance and drive settings (mine are ss amp and no compression), and choose an IR that you like. I use the Factory 161 and 162 mixed since it sounds closest to my live rig, but I haven't tried it through my FR monitor yet.
Click to expand...
These presets come up blank when I try to load them. The other one you posted seems to be the same file Moke posted. Can you repost? Id like to hear what you got.
 
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