Smallest FRFR speaker?

chrisjnyc

Power User
Looking for something to replace my studio monitors at home. The tone between my Rokit 5's and my Xitone powered cab is way off. I think a small FRF might get me closer to the tones from the Xitone.
 
Your welcome. I love them. He is a great cat too. John's support is the best you can ask for.
 
@chrisjnyc have you tried the alt modes on the Xitone? Mode 2 (M.Britt EQ curve, no port cover) and mode 4 (LRFR 12" driver only, no port cover) specifically?
 
Probably just getting better monitors with 8-inch drivers would be a good idea.

I've got the 6" KRKs and I'm rarely happy with them... But I don't use them often.
 
I had some KRK's a while back at the same time as a pair of ZLX-12Ps. Even though I had the ZLX-12Ps tuned pretty well, I had the same problem as you.

When I replaced the KRKs with JBL LSR305s, I was surprised to find the JBLs sounded much closer to the ZLX-12Ps than the Rokits.

Even if you go high-end with the new monitors, they probably won't sound like the Xitone. The Xitone was never designed to be truly FRFR.
 
I had some KRK's a while back at the same time as a pair of ZLX-12Ps. Even though I had the ZLX-12Ps tuned pretty well, I had the same problem as you.

When I replaced the KRKs with JBL LSR305s, I was surprised to find the JBLs sounded much closer to the ZLX-12Ps than the Rokits.

Even if you go high-end with the new monitors, they probably won't sound like the Xitone. The Xitone was never designed to be truly FRFR.
I was actually going to suggest the LSR308s... I've used those at my friend's studio and thought they were pretty nice.
 
I have a pair of iloud micro monitors I use to check mixes. They are suprisingly accurate down to 55hz, despite their 3" woofer. I plugged the Axe in and they were impressively loud and still handled palm mutes on my 7 string without clipping.
 
A frfr monitor and a studio monitor are essentially the same thing, just a different form factor, output level potential etc

A good studio monitor is designed to accurately reproduce the input without coloration, exactly what a frfr monitor speaker is supposed to do

When my CLR are on stands behind my mixing desk they are midfield studio monitors, when I lay them on the floor as a wedge they are a frfr monitor. Same product

Too many guitarist seem to think there is some magical thing called a frfr monitor simply because they don’t understand what any reference monitor is supposed to do, and that is to accurately reproduce as wide of frequency range as the design and price point allow for.

To say a high end small studio monitor isn’t frfr wouldn’t make sense as that is exactly what it’s job is. Just don’t expect to hear yourself on stage with a smaller nearfield desktop lol
 
A frfr monitor and a studio monitor are essentially the same thing, just a different form factor, output level potential etc

A good studio monitor is designed to accurately reproduce the input without coloration, exactly what a frfr monitor speaker is supposed to do

When my CLR are on stands behind my mixing desk they are midfield studio monitors, when I lay them on the floor as a wedge they are a frfr monitor. Same product

Too many guitarist seem to think there is some magical thing called a frfr monitor simply because they don’t understand what any reference monitor is supposed to do, and that is to accurately reproduce as wide of frequency range as the design and price point allow for.

To say a high end small studio monitor isn’t frfr wouldn’t make sense as that is exactly what it’s job is. Just don’t expect to hear yourself on stage with a smaller nearfield desktop lol

Sure, understood about correcting the guitarist perspective on FRFR vs monitors. But I've been wondering, isnt the Axe likely to create bigger transients than any recorded tracks? And if so, can most midfield monitors handle those bigger transients from the Axe, in the same way as a CLR, without blowing an internal fuse or frying the tweeters outright?
 
Sure, understood about correcting the guitarist perspective on FRFR vs monitors. But I've been wondering, isnt the Axe likely to create bigger transients than any recorded tracks? And if so, can most midfield monitors handle those bigger transients from the Axe, in the same way as a CLR, without blowing an internal fuse or frying the tweeters outright?

Why would the Axe have bigger transients ? How is the output of the Axe different than any other guitar tracks, recorded or from a different modeler etc ? For that matter, how is playing the Axe through a monitor different than playing a synth or drum machine through it? If anything, a synth is going to have a far wider frequency range, from bowel shacking sub bass to nearly inaudible highs, while guitar for the most part is like 100 to 6000 Hz, depending on your high and low cuts of the cab block.
 
Why would the Axe have bigger transients ? How is the output of the Axe different than any other guitar tracks, recorded or from a different modeler etc ? For that matter, how is playing the Axe through a monitor different than playing a synth or drum machine through it? If anything, a synth is going to have a far wider frequency range, from bowel shacking sub bass to nearly inaudible highs, while guitar for the most part is like 100 to 6000 Hz, depending on your high and low cuts of the cab block.

Drum machine sounds are only so adjustable, synths are more adjustable, and yes they have a wider frequency response. But the Axe is very adjustable and guitarists with regular amps blow speakers a lot more often than keyboardists and programmers. How about the pick attack on a very loud clean sound, palm mutes on a 7 string, high gain chorused feedback? I suppose because the Axe signal is mostly in the digital domain, it is tamed more than a purely analog guitar sound and all the high voltage flying around between a 100w tube amp into a 4x12. Forgive my lack of knowledge, I'm just trying to understand why guitarists blow speakers and keyboardists and programmers do not...
 
Drum machine sounds are only so adjustable, synths are more adjustable, and yes they have a wider frequency response. But the Axe is very adjustable and guitarists with regular amps blow speakers a lot more often than keyboardists and programmers. How about the pick attack on a very loud clean sound, palm mutes on a 7 string, high gain chorused feedback? I suppose because the Axe signal is mostly in the digital domain, it is tamed more than a purely analog guitar sound and all the high voltage flying around between a 100w tube amp into a 4x12. Forgive my lack of knowledge, I'm just trying to understand why guitarists blow speakers and keyboardists and programmers do not...

Keyboard players/producers are a lot smarter than guitarist on the whole..... lol, just kidding (though kind of true too)

In all honesty, I’ve been playing about 30 years and have never blown a speaker. I’ve never known anyone who has blown a speaker. I wasn’t there but from what I’ve heard in live recording, Jimi Hendrix has blown speakers and also amps, BUT, he was also running them on 10 which most people don’t do these days, and let’s face it, none of us are Jimi.

Synths and drum machines (which are typically samplers or subtractive analog synths) can have very, very fast envelope time, like .001ms or faster, which is a heck of a transient. Think of it this way, you’ve got a whole generation of bedroom “techno” producers subjecting often pretty low end monitors to a whole spectrum of pounding, bass heavy music, and you don’t hear of anyone really blowing up their monitors.
 
Keyboard players/producers are a lot smarter than guitarist on the whole..... lol, just kidding (though kind of true too)

In all honesty, I’ve been playing about 30 years and have never blown a speaker. I’ve never known anyone who has blown a speaker. I wasn’t there but from what I’ve heard in live recording, Jimi Hendrix has blown speakers and also amps, BUT, he was also running them on 10 which most people don’t do these days, and let’s face it, none of us are Jimi.

Synths and drum machines (which are typically samplers or subtractive analog synths) can have very, very fast envelope time, like .001ms or faster, which is a heck of a transient. Think of it this way, you’ve got a whole generation of bedroom “techno” producers subjecting often pretty low end monitors to a whole spectrum of pounding, bass heavy music, and you don’t hear of anyone really blowing up their monitors.

I understand that electronic music has lots of dynamics, but as one approaches clipping on a powered monitor, the clipping is very obvious, nasty and non musical, so the extremes of dynamics are likely pushed on digital gear less often than they would be in an analog signal chain. Just a guess, and again as all the high voltage components of a tube amp are modeled and have no voltage in the Axe, maybe it's transients are no bigger threat to the monitors downstream than a synth.

For those of us guitarists who came of age pushing the parameters of our tube amps and speakers, it's a big adjustment in understanding and approach. I've blown several EV12L's, many power tubes, even a few Hafler 500 mosfet amps. I've been cautioned about running my Matrix XL 2000 into my Eminence Delta Pro loaded 4x12's. The company owner's concern was not the wattage rating of the Eminences but the transients, and what happens as the Matrix switching amp approaches clipping. His advice was I'm sure correct and entirely well-meaning, however unlike a tube amp, I never want to clip a switching amplifier even for a moment, because it sounds horrible, never mind smoking a voice coil! By contrast, I'm sure I drive my Mesa 2/90's into clipping all the time, and they sound great because tubes tame transients in a much softer, even desirable way, which is the main reason I'm reluctant to give them up...

BTW, sorry for the hijack!
 
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guitarists with regular amps blow speakers a lot more often than keyboardists and programmers.
I'm just trying to understand why guitarists blow speakers and keyboardists and programmers do not...
Cus guitarists tend to do stupid stuff with amps, like mismatch speaker impedance, put low wattage speakers into a high powered amp, etc. The amp is a part of the electric guitar sound, and so guitarists mess around with the amp while not knowing much about how it works. That tends to break things.
Keyboardists mostly just plug in to whatever ready-made powered monitor/PA and play, and not mess with the amp or push it, etc. The keyboard is their sound, not the amp (unless it's a leslie or something) so they don't mess with stuff they don't know.

I understand that electronic music has lots of dynamics, but as one approaches clipping on a powered monitor, the clipping is very obvious, nasty and non musical, so the extremes of dynamics are likely pushed on digital gear less often than they would be in an analog signal chain.
Sorry, but a lot of nonsense so far on dynamics and transients, etc. Dynamic range has nothing to do with digital or analog, high voltage or low voltage signal levels, etc. I don't think you quite understand "dynamics."
 
Cus guitarists tend to do stupid stuff with amps, like mismatch speaker impedance, put low wattage speakers into a high powered amp, etc. The amp is a part of the electric guitar sound, and so guitarists mess around with the amp while not knowing much about how it works. That tends to break things.
Keyboardists mostly just plug in to whatever ready-made powered monitor/PA and play, and not mess with the amp or push it, etc. The keyboard is their sound, not the amp (unless it's a leslie or something) so they don't mess with stuff they don't know.


Sorry, but a lot of nonsense so far on dynamics and transients, etc. Dynamic range has nothing to do with digital or analog, high voltage or low voltage signal levels, etc. I don't think you quite understand "dynamics."

I've never blown a speaker from mismatching, nor have I used low wattage speakers and deliberately pushed them. I've only used higher wattage models in every cabinet I've owned. Thanks for the inaccurate generalization.

I never used the term "dynamic range" in this thread. The envelope of a signal and it's high amplitude transients are both dynamics of an audio signal, are they not?
 
I've never blown a speaker from mismatching, nor have I used low wattage speakers and deliberately pushed them. I've only used higher wattage models in every cabinet I've owned. Thanks for the inaccurate generalization.
I never said you have, I said "guitarists," to your "why guitarists..." questions. It was a generalized answer to your generalized question.
Not sure why you're taking things personally, are we going to be able to have a conversation...?

And speakers rated for higher wattage can still blow up when used with lower wattage amps, depending on the type of signal the speaker is subjected to. It just depends, speaker power ratings aren't really reliable/useful anyway.

All I was trying to say is, there's a difference between keyboard players who use ready-made powered monitors to monitor their sounds, and guitarists who mix and match tube amps, speakers, push them to their extremes on purpose, etc. More opportunity for things to go wrong.
I never used the term "dynamic range" in this thread. The envelope of a signal and it's high amplitude transients are both dynamics of an audio signal, are they not?
They are. And if you were simply trying to talk about the "dynamics" as in the envelope and feel of whatever signal, then that's my bad and I misunderstood you.

But when you talk about transients being a problem for various monitors, it sure doesn't seem like you're talking about "dynamics" as a feel thing. You're talking about dynamics as in dynamic range. Input dynamic range of different devices, gain staging issues associated with it, etc.:
can most midfield monitors handle those bigger transients from the Axe, in the same way as a CLR,
as one approaches clipping on a powered monitor, the clipping is very obvious, nasty and non musical, so the extremes of dynamics are likely pushed on digital gear less often than they would be in an analog signal chain.
Just a guess, and again as all the high voltage components of a tube amp are modeled and have no voltage in the Axe, maybe it's transients are no bigger threat to the monitors downstream than a synth.
 
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I never said you have, I said "guitarists," to your "why guitarists..." questions. It was a generalized answer to your generalized question.
Not sure why you're taking things personally, are we going to be able to have a conversation...?

And speakers rated for higher wattage can still blow up when used with lower wattage amps, depending on the type of signal the speaker is subjected to. It just depends, speaker power ratings aren't really reliable/useful anyway.

All I was trying to say is, there's a difference between keyboard players who use ready-made powered monitors to monitor their sounds, and guitarists who mix and match tube amps, speakers, push them to their extremes on purpose, etc. More opportunity for things to go wrong.

They are. And if you were simply trying to talk about the "dynamics" as in the envelope and feel of whatever signal, then that's my bad and I misunderstood you.

But when you talk about transients being a problem for various monitors, it sure doesn't seem like you're talking about "dynamics" as a feel thing. You're talking about dynamics as in dynamic range. Input dynamic range of different devices, gain staging issues associated with it, etc.:



My understanding of audio engineering is better than some worse than others, I have not presented myself as an authority, I am asking questions and would appreciate deference in this regard. I find words like "stupid" and "nonsense" unhelpful when trying to reach an understanding. No offense personal or otherwise is taken.

I am using the term "dynamics" in a general sense, meaning the amplitude, shape and scale of the signal. In my referring to high-voltage in tube amps, there certainly is a dynamic relationship between capacitors, tubes, transformers, speakers, etc, depending what signal is sent into them. I only meant to bring it up as a contrast because obviously in DSP there is no high voltage relationship between the modeled components. I was probably answering my own question.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the dynamic "feel" of any signal chain I might plug into, if I gave that impression, that's my bad. I'm interested in whatever material difference there is between the signal path of a guitarist going from an Axe straight into a pair of studio monitors, as opposed to going into an amp and speaker, mic'd then into a preamp, eq, faders, various transformers, then into a DAW back to a studio monitor. One side has lots of opportunity to tame transients and shape the sounds, the other signal path much shorter.

I once did a duo gig with a guy on laptop, an otherwise very talented musician, who completely fried the tweeters in 2 of his monitors before the FOH realized because he saw smoke rising from them. He did not have his input signal path dynamics sorted, to put it bluntly. Lots of different people do stupid things all the time..:)
 
I am using the term "dynamics" in a general sense, meaning the amplitude, shape and scale of the signal.
FYI dynamics in the sense of the amplitude and scale is talking about "dynamic range."
I'm interested in whatever material difference there is between the signal path of a guitarist going from an Axe straight into a pair of studio monitors, as opposed to going into an amp and speaker, mic'd then into a preamp, eq, faders, various transformers, then into a DAW back to a studio monitor. One side has lots of opportunity to tame transients and shape the sounds, the other signal path much shorter.
The Axe can provide the same signal chain you listed of amp, speaker, mic, preamp, eq, transformers, etc. It's just that it's in the digital. Both have lots of opportunity to "tame transients and shape the sounds" as it relates to dynamics, and it's how you use either signal chains that matters really.
I once did a duo gig with a guy on laptop, an otherwise very talented musician, who completely fried the tweeters in 2 of his monitors before the FOH realized because he saw smoke rising from them. He did not have his input signal path dynamics sorted, to put it bluntly. Lots of different people do stupid things all the time..:)
Sorry my word choice wasn't helpful, but that was exactly my point. Unless it's unreliable gear, it's often the "stupid" things people do with gear that break it down. I think guitarists have much more opportunities to do this with their gear, and are even encouraged to, than keyboardists as I've described in prev posts.
 
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