Small "Pro" Mixer for Home use

[milan67]

Chris, thanks for your help here- that is a problem. I couldn't find the meter page- I was using the I/O page which doesn't show that. I'm WAY up past the nominal level- about 8db all the way to 10db. Now- how do I adjust those levels down to the nominal level? Thanks for the quick replies too. Also- on the Level- it is set to -8 on that block- I have others set much lower because of all this clipping- but I think we've (You) have discovered the source... now how to adjust?

Press button Page 4 times - then the button level on the AX8 and then the button A for the fine adjustment

 

[SRVYJM]

please answer this: the preset you uploaded, if you use it, does it clip for you? the levels were perfect for me, and i don't think even a different guitar would push it into clipping.

also regarding the VU meter, there's a line near the middle. you're saying that when you play, it is showing 8dB to the right of that line?

the solution typically is to reduce the Amp Level. that's why you can turn the A knob in that VU meter screen and adjust that parameter right there, no need to go to the Amp block edit screen.

again, in the preset you uploaded, there is nothing set weird or wrong, nothing that would push the preset into clipping. so we need to figure out what is different.

perhaps your Global Graphic EQ is set weird? go to SETUP, GLOBAL then find the Graphic EQ. is everything there set flat?

1. Yes- that preset clips for me. ALL preset's seem to clip for me.
2. Yes- when I play the VU meter screen was going to 8-10DB. Just used the A knob and adjusted it down (thanks for the tip- I would have gone back and forth to the Amp block). Now it's playing without clipping at all, but it's also so low I can barely hear it! My OUT1 is around 11:00 and I can barely here anything... where do I adjust the volume now that the clipping/levels are correct? OUT1 all the way up is about bedroom level now... but no more clipping at all! We're getting there.
3. Global Graphic EQ is completely flat on OUT1 and OUT2

 

[chris]

1. Yes- that preset clips for me. ALL preset's seem to clip for me.
2. Yes- when I play the VU meter screen was going to 8-10DB. Just used the A knob and adjusted it down (thanks for the tip- I would have gone back and forth to the Amp block). Now it's playing without clipping at all, but it's also so low I can barely hear it! My OUT1 is around 11:00 and I can barely here anything... where do I adjust the volume now that the clipping/levels are correct? OUT1 all the way up is about bedroom level now... but no more clipping at all! We're getting there.
3. Global Graphic EQ is completely flat on OUT1 and OUT2

interesting. i have no idea why that preset would clip for you and not for me. what guitar are you using? any other pedals or midi connected? that's the problem we have to solve.

from here, you would just increase the Out 1 physical knob until it delivers a good amount of signal to your mixer or speaker, whatever is next in the signal path.

do all the factory presets clip for you? something is causing the 8+ dB increase compared to me.

curious what level did your Amp block end up? is there any way you can make a quick video showing your setup and/or the clip light coming on? i believe you but it'd be nice to see just in case there's something else you aren't describing.

 

[SRVYJM]

interesting. i have no idea why that preset would clip for you and not for me. what guitar are you using? any other pedals or midi connected? that's the problem we have to solve.

from here, you would just increase the Out 1 physical knob until it delivers a good amount of signal to your mixer or speaker, whatever is next in the signal path.

do all the factory presets clip for you? something is causing the 8+ dB increase compared to me.

curious what level did your Amp block end up? is there any way you can make a quick video showing your setup and/or the clip light coming on? i believe you but it'd be nice to see just in case there's something else you aren't describing.

Amp block this time ended up at -18.4db. I'h taken several videos- taking forever to upload them. What exactly do you want me to video? The front of the AX8 to see the Main Out clip light?

The guitar I'm using is nothing special (well it is to me!) a Fender Strat loaded with Lindy Frailin' Blues set and a DiMarzio AT1 in the bridge. Normal- fairly low output actually. An no other pedals or midi- just guitar straight into my AX8...

 

[SRVYJM]

Some of this may be my poor experience/knowledge with the mixer (any mixer) too. Maybe I should be setting up my mixer somehow differently? I'll post the video when it's finally done uploading to Photobucket. By the way- any better sites to post images and videos to for use on this forum? Photo bucket seems to have kind of lost it's edge so to speak.

 

[chris]

Some of this may be my poor experience/knowledge with the mixer (any mixer) too. Maybe I should be setting up my mixer somehow differently? I'll post the video when it's finally done uploading to Photobucket. By the way- any better sites to post images and videos to for use on this forum? Photo bucket seems to have kind of lost it's edge so to speak.

youtube for videos. i use imgur for images.

 

[SRVYJM]

Here is video:

 

[SRVYJM]

So as I'm messing with this- whenever I try a factory preset- they are all around 10db?!?! I have to lower the level on all of them. Why would that be? It's not like I have high output pickups? Should I reset this thing to factory settings or something maybe?

 

[chris]

thanks for the video.

putting the gain knob on your mixer to the middle isn't any type of "correct" setting. even if that is unity - which i think it isn't - you typically set that knob for what you need, not what "should" be.

the Main faders (bottom right of the mixer) were very, very low, so you have a lot of head room right now on your mixer, even when the AX8 tone was clipping. so turning the AX8 Out 1 knob all the way up is actually a lot of signal, and your mixer is handling it fine. you just have the mixer turned way down (and probably have your speakers turned way up!). I'm not saying to change anything - leave it for now, we don't want to change too many things. just saying that things seem to be fine as far as total output coming from the AX8, and your mixer is handling it fine.

there is a level set method on most mixers. i explain it in this video i made a while ago:



it's shortly after i explain the gain knob, which is relevant here too, so i linked the video to 25m21s for you.

so your mixer and things seem fine. it really is the high preset volume on the AX8 for whatever reason.

assuming you didn't make many Setup Menu changes, you may want to try the "Reset System Parameters" function in the Setup - Utility menu. just go there and press Enter. note that this only resets Menu settings and some other things. it does NOT reset Presets or anything like that.

did you just recently get the AX8? new or used? have you updated Firmware recently? Firmware, Presets, and System Settings are all separate, so changing one without changing another sometimes leads to this sort of thing, but i'm not saying that's the issue.

i'm just puzzled why a preset for you is 10dB louder than the same preset for me. can some other people test the preset that's in this thread?

xlr vs 1/4" really won't make too much of a difference, since your mixer is working just fine already.

you probably also want to set the pan full left and full right for the 2 channels so you have a true stereo signal. there really isn't any benefit to having it panned less than full when the AX8 sends discreet left and right signals.

 

[SRVYJM]

Awesome, thanks Chris... resetting now. I'm not a new user, but I did buy this unit used. I'm on the latest firmware too and updated recently so maybe that's part of it. THAT WAS AN AWESOME VIDEO! Super helpful- had no idea how any of that worked, now I do. I think I'll subscribe to your channel that was SOOOO helpful and insightful. I've never understood anything about mixers and sound guys- now I feel like it makes way more sense.

Quick question though- setting up a "mix"- that really helped from the mixing point of view- now how do I know where to put the OUT1 main on the AX8? Since turning up the OUT1 actually causes the volume to clip- where should I start? If I have my channel faders at 0- and my main mix faders at -30 for example- where do I even start with the OUT1 mix? Does that question make sense? Now that I know how to mix at the board level- what should I be doing at the AX8 level? SOOOO many outputs! We haven't even talked about the Level and Master yet!

 

[chris]

Since turning up the OUT1 actually causes the volume to clip-

The physical Out Knob doesn’t cause any clipping in the AX8. The clip light on the AX8 shows what I call “internal” clipping, meaning it’s caused by the settings of the preset.

The Out Knob can only clip the NEXT device in the signal path - your mixer, or speaker, etc. by turning it up too much.

I typically use the Out Knob between 9 and 3 o clock. I start at 9 o clock, then gain stage the mixer like I showed in the video. Basically I try to stay in the middle range of whatever knobs are available. This isn’t a 100% rule at all, you need to learn your devices and how to gain stage.

 

[SRVYJM]

Chris,
So I understand that the OUT1 doesn't cause the AX8 to clip- but it does cause the mixer to clip- so that's where my question came from regarding where to start with the OUT1 level. I'll take your advise and try it from 9:00 to 3:00 and see what I like sound wise and where that puts me in my mix. I"m also finding that my Amp Level on that preset needs to be at -17.4dB to keep from clipping at the mixer board- does that sound relatively normal? My gain PFL on the board is backed way off to, around 8:00 otherwise I start getting into the yellow zone on my PFL Levels.

All this is really helpful- it's eliminated the original clipping issue on the AX8- I'm not getting Main Out Clips at all with the levels turned down- Right in the sweet spot on the VU meter just under the line

One weird thing- I notice on the VU meter my L1 channel is always a bit hotter then the R1 side- is there a way to level them out to be equal? Is that normal and should I worry about it?

 

[GiRa]

Hold your horses!
IMHO you have a process problem, not a gear problem.

You need to approach gain staging as a multi stage (pun intended, well not a pun) process:

- Prepare your reference preset according to the Yek's guide. You don't even need the AX8 to be plugged in somewhere to do that, just guitar and AX8

- Then find on your mixer manual how to set the input gain, there is either a peak/clip light on each channel or/and a PFL (pre fader listen) button on each channel. Set the master fader(s) to zero and play as loud as possible on your guitar, with the AX8 output dimed and set the mixer input gain as low as it does not clip or is around 0dB. You will need a padded or line input to do that. This is not a matter of quality, just a matter of type of signal.

- Finally set the channel fader and the master fader at 0dB and set the gain staging for your speakers. The process is always the same.

This will lead to good signal to noise ratio, no matter the equipment.
Gain staging is pretty much like combining some water pipes: you want to be ready for the maximum amount of water. If you are never gonna use it, it's not a problem. You know you are safe.



If someone is interested, I usually use a Synth block producing a white noise just below clipping (crack the output level) and the outputs fully opened with the Axe-FX to gain stage before recording on a new rig.

 

[Dave76]

Reading through this thread, I believe you have a combination of issues going on with clipping likely being introduced both on the AX8 and mixer side.

I just put your preset on my AX8 and it easily clips internally if I just chug away on some palm muted power chords. According to the VU meter, it's consistently high on the output even when it isn't clipping. I don't see anything wrong with it other than the amp block level needs to be pulled down a bit. What you have in the uploaded preset is -8dB which in my experience is pretty hot for that amp. I'm finding for your preset that pulling amp level down to between -12dB and -16dB is roughly averaging out around the line on the VU meter (range represents the variation based on what I'm playing). Targeting the line on the VU meter is usually my starting point for leveling presets and then I'll tweak the exact value to level it relative to my other presets. The amp block level is the officially sanctioned method for leveling presets and will not affect amp tone so don't be afraid to set it to wherever it needs to be.

One thing I notice in the screenshot that you took is that you have the delay blocks hooked up in parallel but you don't have mix set to 100% on either of these in the preset you uploaded (but the top one is not hooked up). If you connect two blocks in parallel with low mix settings on each, you are getting two copies of the dry signal which add up to be much louder than one. Did you have them both hooked up when you found you needed to pull the amp block down to -26db? That would explain why you had to pull the block down that low. Rule of thumb is that any block in parallel to your main dry signal should be 100% mix (i.e. only supplying the effect signal and no dry).

Looking at your video, it appears that you have the pan for the two channels coming from the AX8 set to maybe 75% in each direction? I'd advise hard panning these left and right. This probably isn't affecting the clipping issues but you might run into phase issues if you let them overlap that affect overall sound quality (particularly with the enhancer block involved).

I personally set my AX8 OUT1 level to 100% and pretty much always run it at 100%. I find with 100% OUT1 level on the AX8 plus the VU meter on the preset roughly averaging out on the line (which is located 10dB under the clipping point) that the dBV meters on my digital mixer or in DAWs consistently hit about -10dB with input gain on these devices flat. I'm guessing this is not a coincidence.

I have encountered some cheapo analog mixers that seem to have some sort of hardwired additional gain on the XLR inputs vs. TRS. I use an XLR-to-TRS adapter to work around these.

 

[SRVYJM]

Reading through this thread, I believe you have a combination of issues going on with clipping likely being introduced both on the AX8 and mixer side.

I just put your preset on my AX8 and it easily clips internally if I just chug away on some palm muted power chords. According to the VU meter, it's consistently high on the output even when it isn't clipping. I don't see anything wrong with it other than the amp block level needs to be pulled down a bit. What you have in the uploaded preset is -8dB which in my experience is pretty hot for that amp. I'm finding for your preset that pulling amp level down to between -12dB and -16dB is roughly averaging out around the line on the VU meter (range represents the variation based on what I'm playing). Targeting the line on the VU meter is usually my starting point for leveling presets and then I'll tweak the exact value to level it relative to my other presets. The amp block level is the officially sanctioned method for leveling presets and will not affect amp tone so don't be afraid to set it to wherever it needs to be.

One thing I notice in the screenshot that you took is that you have the delay blocks hooked up in parallel but you don't have mix set to 100% on either of these in the preset you uploaded (but the top one is not hooked up). If you connect two blocks in parallel with low mix settings on each, you are getting two copies of the dry signal which add up to be much louder than one. Did you have them both hooked up when you found you needed to pull the amp block down to -26db? That would explain why you had to pull the block down that low. Rule of thumb is that any block in parallel to your main dry signal should be 100% mix (i.e. only supplying the effect signal and no dry).

Looking at your video, it appears that you have the pan for the two channels coming from the AX8 set to maybe 75% in each direction? I'd advise hard panning these left and right. This probably isn't affecting the clipping issues but you might run into phase issues if you let them overlap that affect overall sound quality (particularly with the enhancer block involved).

I personally set my AX8 OUT1 level to 100% and pretty much always run it at 100%. I find with 100% OUT1 level on the AX8 plus the VU meter on the preset roughly averaging out on the line (which is located 10dB under the clipping point) that the dBV meters on my digital mixer or in DAWs consistently hit about -10dB with input gain on these devices flat. I'm guessing this is not a coincidence.

I have encountered some cheapo analog mixers that seem to have some sort of hardwired additional gain on the XLR inputs vs. TRS. I use an XLR-to-TRS adapter to work around these.

OK, latest I'm now at -17.4dB and NO CLIPPING ANYWHERE! Yah, that's what I'm talking about. My main mix fader is way down to -35dB for home use- but that's perfectly OK with me- the irritating clipping is completely gone now. Woohoo! Thanks guys- this has been quite the lesson in gain staging- I can see I have a lot to learn about basic sound- no more just plug in my amp and playing to get a good tone- but once dialed in there is so much more in here so it's worth it- even if I'm slow.

About the parallel delay's- it's because I don't know what I'm doing really. I'm trying to emulate an Andy Timmons type dual deal with one delay at 500ms and the other at 350- like he does with his Memory Men (now Timeline). I can get a good one on my Timeline with the dual delay setting- but didn't know how to achieve it here. Any advise? When you say to set one delay at 100% mix- when I do that I get way too much delay- I'm looking for a subtle delay- not huge that overwhelms the initial note- that's why I had the mix backed off.I'm assuming you're talking about the Mixer section under Mix (Global)? Also- is there a way to run it to achieve the same thing without being in parallel (series perhaps)? It may be what was giving such a hot signal- I deleted it for now (along with the gate- I figured out how to use the Input gate properly to silence the noise up front). I'm also down to 68% CPU now which is much better!

 

[Zapa]

BTW, that mixer is perfectly fine for guitars. If you ever mic an amp through it you'll find out that the pre-amp is quite suited for guitar work

Not every problem is solved throwing money at it

 

[Rex]

When you say to set one delay at 100% mix- when I do that I get way too much delay- I'm looking for a subtle delay- not huge that overwhelms the initial note- that's why I had the mix backed off.

When you’re running hr delay in parallel, set the delay amount with Level, not with Mix. It’s easier to control the end result that way.

 

[Dave76]

Also worth noting that most (if not all?) of the delay types can be set to "dual" config with gives you two delays with one block.