Simple harmony dilemma

[Will Chen]

Okay, that what I wanted to know, if that definitely works for the solo for this particular song, because in most circumstances where I've programmed custom scales, they still need a momentary tweak because many harmonies are not as straightforward, and real world writers will switch rules depending on the situation. I know how the custom shifters work and what's available, which is why I kept writing that I'd need to see a transcription to see what would work for this song. If you know this song, then there's the answer. I've worked many times with songs where, when you play B the first time, you need one note to sound above it, but the second time you hit the same B, another note sounds above it. That's when you need something to tell the shifter that the rules change the second time you play that note.

Yes of course, if there is a very complex part in which a note is harmonized differently within a single piece then that must be accounted for. Like, a harmonizer even with custom scales is never going to be able to handle a true contrapuntal 2+ part harmony. That's not what the OP needs.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Yes of course, if there is a very complex part in which a note is harmonized differently within a single piece then that must be accounted for. Like, a harmonizer even with custom scales is never going to be able to handle a true contrapuntal 2+ part harmony. That's not what the OP needs.

That's cool that it works for this song; I've never tried to learn anything by Grand Funk so I didn't know. And I'm not talking about something using the actual rules of counterpoint even, which is its own ball of wax, but just very simple songs (compositionally) like the ones I listed: Blackened, Master of Puppets, Hang Tough, and Tesla all have harmonies where the needed harmony to the lower note shifts the second time that note is played. Those songs are not counterpoint at all. Harmonies yes, counterpoint no. And there are more, those were just some I've programmed in the past for my own fun!

But I'm really glad you spelled out how the custom shifter works, because that thing is amazing, and easy to forget about, since the scales referenced are in the global settings.

 

[State of Epicicity]

a custom scale might work, if it doesn’t mess up the logic of what the harmonizer considers a third. If you have this situation with a single passing note in D major:

D
D#
E
F#
G
A
B
C#

Then then third up from D, as far as the harmonizer understands the custom scale, is E, not the F# you’d want. But I’d have to look at or to make an accurate transcription to see for sure.

I got caught up in my own arguments here, and I'm pushing the wrong point in that quote, not arguing against the Custom Shifter model, but against the Diatonic Shifter. And I'm not naming here my chief concern, which was that notes can repeat with a different harmony above or below.

 

[unix-guy]

Where are you reading that it could definitely handle it in this instance with a custom scale? Do you know this solo? I read to try and figure out where you’re getting this. I found the suggestion, but that doesn’t mean it actually works in the logic of this particular harmony. Passing tones are just too much of a wrench in the logic for a custom scale always to work.

In this case, I was trusting the input of @Bakerman who is not only an Axe Fx whiz but a professional transcriber with a number of books of incredibly difficult music transcribed, and someone with a fantastic ear for this stuff

 

[State of Epicicity]

@unix-guy and @2112, Yeah, custom scales are very useful, but diatonic harmonies with passing notes can easily throw off the logic of the pitch block, because what we understand as a diatonic third in actual music is just “whatever pitch is two notes away in this custom scale” to the Pitch Block. That’s all well and good if that happens to work with the particular harmony you’re playing, but I’ve tried custom scales for many different harmonies that I’ve recreated in the Axe-FX III, and the logic of a recorded harmony from a well known album so often breaks in one or two notes with what a harmonizer would understand outright, I’ve always used either method above to get a seamless recreation. Examples: Blackened, Master of Puppets by Metallica, Hang Tough by Tesla, and The Trooper by Iron Maiden off the top of my head. These are not the same as the OP’s passing note puzzle, but the solution is the same, to switch the logic of the harmonizer for just one or two notes in the middle of playing, gaplessly.

And now I understand you guys @unix-guy and @2112 were arguing for the Custom Shifter type specifically, not a custom scale elsewhere, so forget what I'm saying here.

 

[State of Epicicity]

In this case, I was trusting the input of @Bakerman who is not only an Axe Fx whiz but a professional transcriber with a number of books of incredibly difficult music transcribed, and someone with a fantastic ear for this stuff

Yeah, if someone knows the piece of music that changes everything! I was reading the responses like they would be blanket solutions, but in my experience transcribing stuff, the rules created by real world harmonies are usually more involved than what even the Custom Shifter could handle. And unix, if you keep winking at me every time you respond, I'm gonna start thinking I'm being hit on.

 

[Bakerman]

Here are the notes. The 9-note custom scale I mentioned above will work. The note marked * will have an E♯/F harmony since the scale note below (C) sounds a major third. The rest of them are "fourths" from the scale due to the extra notes, even though there's only one real fourth (A-D) in the part.

 

[Admin M@]

I'm quite good at this stuff, but I always know to stand down when @Bakerman is on the scene

 

[State of Epicicity]

Here are the notes. The 9-note custom scale I mentioned above will work. The note marked * will have an E♯/F harmony since the scale note below (C) sounds a major third. The rest of them are "fourths" from the scale due to the extra notes, even though there's only one real fourth (A-D) in the part.

Yup, that’s the crux right there. Thanks so much for posting this! As long as the harmonies keep their own rules within the section, the harmonizer doesn’t have to change rules either.

 

[DJD100]

I recommend not using channels in this particular case for that reason.

Two ways I’d do it:

If you use a momentary control switch modifier, you can program it to change values gaplessly, seamlessly, while you’re playing, if you change Update Rate to Fast and the Attack and Release to 0.0ms on each modifier’s menu page. With what you’re doing, you could achieve this in a couple of different ways with modifiers like this, but I’d have to know the transcription specifically to say exactly what.

The simpler way to do it gaplessly is to send your signal to two different pitch blocks parallel on the same column, one set to the basic diatonic harmony, the other to handle the passing note harmonies with either a chromatic or diatonic harmonizer (custom scale if necessary), depending on the logic of the original harmony, then send the output of each into a Multiplexer, and use a footswitch or MIDI to switch between channels of the Multiplexer to switch gaplessly between the two rows. Multiplexers are our saviors in general for gapless switching if you have two of the same block available in your preset.

@unix-guy and @2112, Yeah, custom scales are very useful, but diatonic harmonies with passing notes can easily throw off the logic of the pitch block, because what we understand as a diatonic third in actual music is just “whatever pitch is two notes away in this custom scale” to the Pitch Block. That’s all well and good if that happens to work with the particular harmony you’re playing, but I’ve tried custom scales for many different harmonies that I’ve recreated in the Axe-FX III, and the logic of a recorded harmony from a well known album so often breaks in one or two notes with what a harmonizer would understand outright, I’ve always used either method above to get a seamless recreation. Examples: Blackened, Master of Puppets by Metallica, Hang Tough by Tesla, and The Trooper by Iron Maiden off the top of my head. These are not the same as the OP’s passing note puzzle, but the solution is the same, to switch the logic of the harmonizer for just one or two notes in the middle of playing, gaplessly.

My changes are automated via MIDI from Ableton LIVE, and in FW 5.01 and earlier changing channels which are using the same Dual Diatonic algo excepting the scale setting, works instantaneously, i.e. perfectly (one key center, Gm, with the fourth pitch's harmony interval changing from a major third to a minor third, C/E -> C/Eb).

I also noted that FW 5.02 broke this ability, though I believe that FW 5.03 fixed it. Sadly though, other FW 5.03 bugs concerning it corrupting modifier params in at minimum presets created with earlier FW's, precludes me from using FW 5.03.

This modifier param bug has been recreated by Fractal, and is scheduled to be fixed in the next rev according to Matt.

If there is a better way to change harmony intervals "via MIDI", using the Dual Diatonic algo I'm all ears?

 

[ZoonDog]

Just returned from work...grabbed a adult beverage and checking in...wow...thanks a bunch guys this forum is definitely the "cats meow" as my mom says!!

You guys have given me a lot to chew on but I will try this later this week when I return from business trip. I am so happy to be part of this community and LOVE my FM3...just got invite for FM9 but given our economy and the small clubs I play it is a tough decision.
I will let you know how it worked out.

Thanks so much!

PS. I agree, 432 is overrated but trying to get along...lol.