Simple harmony dilemma

[ZoonDog]

Hey all...need some help. Just spent 2 hours tryin to do the harmony solo to "American Band" by Grand Funk with the pitch block using Dual Diatonic. It is a simple 3rd above tonic in Dmaj which is song key but includes a couple chromatic notes. The solo starts with a G. It is simple enough where I can play the harmony simultaneously so don't really need the Pitch block but thought I would make it easier and experiment a bit with pitch block. Here is the rub...

Band tunes to A432 with a 8 cent detune...(don't ask...the keyboard player is a spiritual guy and believes this is the magical tuning) we also drop to Eb. Given that this is not going to change...is it even possible to use the pitch block in this fashion? Is the pitch block calibrated to an A440 or is it calibrated to the tuning set up with the tuner? (A432 -8cents).

I can get close with key set to Gb and using melodic minor scale but falls apart. I know enough theory to be dangerous but this is driving me whacko!

So thought I would throw it out just in case I am doing something wrong...which would be totally understandable!

PS. my preset is running at about 82% which is right on the edge so would have to make some adjustments if this is possible for FM3.

thanks

 

[Will Chen]

1. For the chromatic notes, you pretty much have to use a custom scale. There is no scale which is going to handle out of key notes correctly.

2. If it's not following the tuner calibration, 8 cent flat should still be more than close enough for the FM3 to identify notes and the intended harmony. Maybe try detuning the harmony voices by 8 cent as well.

 

[ZoonDog]

Thanks...I figured chromatic would be tough. I did detune harmony by 8 cents. If I have programmed a A432 -8cents in the tuner...do you know if the FM3 configures all scales and keys to that tuning or is FM3 pitch block tuned to a hard A440 and harmony is based on that regardless of programmed tuning?

 

[Will Chen]

Thanks...I figured chromatic would be tough. I did detune harmony by 8 cents. If I have programmed a A432 -8cents in the tuner...do you know if the FM3 configures all scales and keys to that tuning or is FM3 pitch block tuned to a hard A440 and harmony is based on that regardless of programmed tuning?

No idea, it should be pretty obvious to you when you play whether it's in tune. The chromatic thing isn't tough, you just set up a custom scale matching the normal scale harmony you need and then input what harmony notes you want for the accidentals outside the key.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Do you have a footswitch you can use? If so, program the standard scale and use a modifier for the out of scale notes, modifying them with a momentary control switch!

 

[unix-guy]

Do you have a footswitch you can use? If so, program the standard scale and use a modifier for the out of scale notes, modifying them with a momentary control switch!

There's no real need, since as mentioned above a custom scale could handle it...

 

[2112]

Yep, custom scales will do the job. Here's an example.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Does the harmony against the chromatic notes stay the same throughout the solo? I.e., I assumed the harmony might change at different spots. If it’s always the same, then yeah, a custom scale might work, if it doesn’t mess up the logic of what the harmonizer considers a third. If you have this situation with a single passing note in D major:

D
D#
E
F#
G
A
B
C#

Then then third up from D, as far as the harmonizer understands the custom scale, is E, not the F# you’d want. But I’d have to look at or to make an accurate transcription to see for sure.

 

[Bakerman]

Custom Shifter type could cover it, but you can avoid using a global scale with dual diatonic type and this custom 9-note scale: D D♯ E F♯ G G♯ A B C. Use one voice with harmony at "4", key = D♭ if tuned down 1/2 step.

 

[DJD100]

I have a passage where I need a smooth major to minor third harmony switch on the key of G's fourth (C), so I setup two channels of Dual Diatonic, one in G minor dorian and the other in G minor aeolian , and Ableton LIVE switches them for me, but a foot switch could also to it.

Note that FW 5.02 was way too slow changing Pitch Block's channels via MIDI for this to work, though FW's 5.01 and earlier are/were fine (don't know about FW 5.03 as there's another bug that precludes me from using it, though I think it was ok during my short test of it?).

 

[State of Epicicity]

Note that FW 5.02 was way too slow changing Pitch Block's channels via MIDI for this to work, though FW's 5.01 and earlier are fine (don't know about FW 5.03 as there's another bug that precludes me from using it, though I think it's ok during my short test of it?).

I recommend not using channels in this particular case for that reason.

Two ways I’d do it:

If you use a momentary control switch modifier, you can program it to change values gaplessly, seamlessly, while you’re playing, if you change Update Rate to Fast and the Attack and Release to 0.0ms on each modifier’s menu page. With what you’re doing, you could achieve this in a couple of different ways with modifiers like this, but I’d have to know the transcription specifically to say exactly what.

The simpler way to do it gaplessly is to send your signal to two different pitch blocks parallel on the same column, one set to the basic diatonic harmony, the other to handle the passing note harmonies with either a chromatic or diatonic harmonizer (custom scale if necessary), depending on the logic of the original harmony, then send the output of each into a Multiplexer, and use a footswitch or MIDI to switch between channels of the Multiplexer to switch gaplessly between the two rows. Multiplexers are our saviors in general for gapless switching if you have two of the same block available in your preset.

@unix-guy and @2112, Yeah, custom scales are very useful, but diatonic harmonies with passing notes can easily throw off the logic of the pitch block, because what we understand as a diatonic third in actual music is just “whatever pitch is two notes away in this custom scale” to the Pitch Block. That’s all well and good if that happens to work with the particular harmony you’re playing, but I’ve tried custom scales for many different harmonies that I’ve recreated in the Axe-FX III, and the logic of a recorded harmony from a well known album so often breaks in one or two notes with what a harmonizer would understand outright, I’ve always used either method above to get a seamless recreation. Examples: Blackened, Master of Puppets by Metallica, Hang Tough by Tesla, and The Trooper by Iron Maiden off the top of my head. These are not the same as the OP’s passing note puzzle, but the solution is the same, to switch the logic of the harmonizer for just one or two notes in the middle of playing, gaplessly.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Oh, one more method to do this gaplessly: Scene Controllers. Again, set the modifier to the fast update rate as well as Attack and Release to 0! That way you can use MIDI commands from Ableton LIVE or a footswitch just to change Scenes gaplessly. Nine times out of ten it’s channels that cause an audible gap, so Multiplexers, Scene Controllers, and Control Switch modifiers are three alternatives.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Custom Shifter type could cover it, but you can avoid using a global scale with dual diatonic type and this custom 9-note scale: D D♯ E F♯ G G♯ A B C. Use one voice with harmony at "4", key = D♭ if tuned down 1/2 step.

For this custom scale your diatonic third above A would sound as an augmented third or in reality just a perfect fourth to come out as D. If you either don’t play an A in the solo or the original solo does have a D harmonize above all instances of A sounding in the bottom note, you’re all set.

 

[State of Epicicity]

And of course, another potential to trigger changes of harmonizer logic, is to trigger it using the pitch itself with the pitch detector modifier; I don’t know if the FM3 has this. And this would only work if the harmony changes its logic in the same way every time you play the passing tone.

 

[State of Epicicity]

There's no real need, since as mentioned above a custom scale could handle it...

Where are you reading that it could definitely handle it in this instance with a custom scale? Do you know this solo? I read to try and figure out where you’re getting this. I found the suggestion, but that doesn’t mean it actually works in the logic of this particular harmony. Passing tones are just too much of a wrench in the logic for a custom scale always to work.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Yep, custom scales will do the job. Here's an example.

Same question. Do you know it won’t break the logic in this particular solo?

 

[Will Chen]

Where are you reading that it could definitely handle it in this instance with a custom scale? Do you know this solo? I read to try and figure out where you’re getting this. I found the suggestion, but that doesn’t mean it actually works in the logic of this particular harmony. Passing tones are just too much of a wrench in the logic for a custom scale always to work.

Custom scales is kinda a misnomer depending on usage. With the custom shifter, the "scale" is the interval triggered when a given note is played, not truly defining a scale for which a relative interval can be applied. This allows one to really arrange a more complex harmony than a straight interval or deal with notes out of key in a specific way (the song key, the custom scale has no key really). In this case very basic case of about 3 bars of harmony, this works 100% perfectly.

1. Set up custom scale 1 with the following intervals (this is in normal tuning, op would have to set the intervals for pitches1/2 step lower):

B = 4
C = 4
C# = 4
D = 4
F# = 3
G = 4

2. Add a pitch block with the type Custom Shifter, lower level 2 to 0 (we're only using one harmony line).

This works 100% for the American Band solo playing the lower guitar line.

 

[Poparad]

That 432 nonsense needs to die a quick, firery death.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Custom scales is kinda a misnomer depending on usage. With the custom shifter, the "scale" is the interval triggered when a given note is played, not truly defining a scale for which a relative interval can be applied. This allows one to really arrange a more complex harmony than a straight interval or deal with notes out of key in a specific way (the song key, the custom scale has no key really). In this case very basic case of about 3 bars of harmony, this works 100% perfectly.

1. Set up custom scale 1 with the following intervals (this is in normal tuning, op would have to set the intervals for pitches1/2 step lower):

B = 4
C = 4
C# = 4
D = 4
F# = 3
G = 4

2. Add a pitch block with the type Custom Shifter, lower level 2 to 0 (we're only using one harmony line).

This works 100% for the American Band solo playing the lower guitar line.

Okay, that what I wanted to know, if that definitely works for the solo for this particular song, because in most circumstances where I've programmed custom scales, they still need a momentary tweak because many harmonies are not as straightforward, and real world writers will switch rules depending on the situation. I know how the custom shifters work and what's available, which is why I kept writing that I'd need to see a transcription to see what would work for this song. If you know this song, then there's the answer. I've worked many times with songs where, when you play B the first time, you need one note to sound above it, but the second time you hit the same B, another note sounds above it. That's when you need something to tell the shifter that the rules change the second time you play that note.

 

[State of Epicicity]

To clarify, what I mean above by "custom shifters" is not only the actual Custom Shifter model in the Pitch Block, but also the use of custom scales in the other shifting models; I mean it as a broad term to signify shifters sounding out harmonies that either do not sound out 1:1 straight chromatic transpositions that result in harmonies or ones that do not sound out diatonically in common scales, or even with the same interval used above or below each note.