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Silence between scene switching/channel switching

Hey guys,

So Im trying to use the III for my band live show, and shooting it midi info, primarily scene changes.

There is still a slight silent delay between switching.

This happens when switching it via Axe-Edit too.

Is this something that was this noticeable on the AxeFX II or will it get better?

I understand I could send a bunch more cc# changes via midi to turn pedal blocks on and off etc., rather than switching scenes, but the problem still arises when wanting to switch from a clean sound, which the heavier amps cant really do, to a dirty or vice versa.

Any tips on actual setup much appreciated.

FYI I have a patch setup to run 2 electric guitars through amp blocks and cabs, and then a bass guitar which is then split into 2 mono signals, a clean direct out and a processed amp sounding channel.

Definitely loading the III up but still a pretty safe 80-85%

Thanks
 
How is anyone going to notice an audio gap of 35ms in the context of a band mix ?
Mmmm. Seems much longer or at least more noticeable than that. And I feel since the gap appears across all guitars it will be noticeable.. I'll keep messing and find a work around. If anyone has any similar setups without the problem would love to know how u get around it.
 

chris

Legend!
Hey guys,

So Im trying to use the III for my band live show, and shooting it midi info, primarily scene changes.

There is still a slight silent delay between switching.

This happens when switching it via Axe-Edit too.

Is this something that was this noticeable on the AxeFX II or will it get better?

I understand I could send a bunch more cc# changes via midi to turn pedal blocks on and off etc., rather than switching scenes, but the problem still arises when wanting to switch from a clean sound, which the heavier amps cant really do, to a dirty or vice versa.

Any tips on actual setup much appreciated.

FYI I have a patch setup to run 2 electric guitars through amp blocks and cabs, and then a bass guitar which is then split into 2 mono signals, a clean direct out and a processed amp sounding channel.

Definitely loading the III up but still a pretty safe 80-85%

Thanks
this was just improved in Firmware 1.09.

when channels change, there needs to be a gap or there would be a pop. this is discussed almost daily here.

there's either a pop due to sudden parameter changes, or a small audio gap. it's the same with any gear that changes more than just a few things. trust me - the gap is way better.
 
this was just improved in Firmware 1.09.

when channels change, there needs to be a gap or there would be a pop. this is discussed almost daily here.

there's either a pop due to sudden parameter changes, or a small audio gap. it's the same with any gear that changes more than just a few things. trust me - the gap is way better.
Fair enough. Just would be great if it only added the gap on the output assigned to the amp or cabinet block switching, not all of the 4 outputs. Maybe that could be fixed in the future?

For example, it is adding the small audio gap across all 4 stereo outputs, when only one of the amp blocks on a channel is changing.
 

chris

Legend!
Fair enough. Just would be great if it only added the gap on the output assigned to the amp or cabinet block switching, not all of the 4 outputs. Maybe that could be fixed in the future?

For example, it is adding the small audio gap across all 4 stereo outputs, when only one of the amp blocks on a channel is changing.
if any block's channel changes, there is the gap for the same reason, it's not just amp blocks. i think it would take a lot of resources for each block to "know" what row it's in and then what output it's going to.
 
if any block's channel changes, there is the gap for the same reason, it's not just amp blocks. i think it would take a lot of resources for each block to "know" what row it's in and then what output it's going to.
Yeah maybe, but I figure if it knows enough to pass the signal through a chain to an assigned output, it could easily apply the noise gap to only that path changing...But thats a programmer thing.. I'll make do for now.
If only I could find an amp sounding like my clean channel on my JCM800, and then kick a good sounding distortion block in, I wouldn't need to change the channels mid song. I'll keep looking:)
 

Dr. Dipwad

Inspired
Yeah maybe ... I'll make do for now.... I'll keep looking:)
I know the feeling: We keep looking. It seems as if, with a system as powerful as the Axe III, there should be a way for us to have perfectly seamless channel-changing whenever we change scenes, without dropouts or "pops."

As Chris noted,
when channels change, there needs to be a gap or there would be a pop. this is discussed almost daily here.
Yes, it is.

I think what everyone's really looking for is: Scene Changes that trigger...
(a.) Channel Changes in some blocks, which Crossfade from the previous channel to the next channel;
...combined with,
(b.) FX Bypasses which fade-in or fade-out when you turn an effect on or off,
...where the crossfades, fade-ins, and fade-outs all happen simultaneously over a short interval (e.g. 500ms).

That would be the perfectly smooth, gapless, zero-pop, solution.

If (a.) and (b.) existed, then, whenever you changed scenes, FX blocks you've "turned off" react by changing their Mix from 100% to 0% over an interval, so they don't abruptly end. FX blocks you've "turned on" would go from 0% to 100% over the same interval. And, at the same time, any blocks which changed channel would crossfade from the prior channel to the new one, over the same interval. Your sound would seem to quickly morph into the new sound.

I submitted feature WISH requests for these ideas, here:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/crossfading-channel-changes-in-a-block.136473/
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fx-bypass-fade-in-out-time.136578/

It turns out that the FX Bypasses which fade-in or fade-out can be done already, by means of Scene Controllers. But it doesn't look like the toggle states on the Foot Controller would correctly indicate their on/off states unless that's something the FC-series controllers can be programmed to do via fancy settings.

As for the Crossfading Channel Changes, they would work, but only by "harnessing" two instances of the same block type to be running simultaneously. (Crossfading, after all, means that during the channel change you're hearing both at once: While one is fading out, the next is fading in.) That means you'd give up the option of having two Amp blocks on your grid at the same time: The Axe FX III only has 2 Amp blocks available in the Inventory, and if you use them both to obtain one amp's worth of Crossfading Channel Changes, there aren't any left. (A price I'm willing to pay! ...but perhaps not everyone is.)

I still think a lot of people would like the option of Crossfading Channel Changes, so they could get that perfectly gap-free, non-abrupt Scene Change. But it's less easy-to-implement than some other asked-for features. If they ever implement the feature, it'll probably be after they've already done other improvements which are easier-to-implement.

We'll see.
 

HurdyGuigui

Inspired
Hello there,

I think Cliff told this was fixed with firmware 1.09. Have you tried?
I don't have an AXE III yet, but this is a big concern for me as I use the looper in the axe to build my songs in my one man band (where nobody is here to cover any gap) .
On the II, I can loop some stuff then go to scene 2 which switch a lot of x/y states without any gap in the loop.

Could someone report me how this work on the III with channels ?

If there is a gap in the loop when switching scenes I am good to stick with the II... :(

Hopefully not :)
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
I know the feeling: We keep looking. It seems as if, with a system as powerful as the Axe III, there should be a way for us to have perfectly seamless channel-changing whenever we change scenes, without dropouts or "pops."

As Chris noted,


Yes, it is.

I think what everyone's really looking for is: Scene Changes that trigger...
(a.) Channel Changes in some blocks, which Crossfade from the previous channel to the next channel;
...combined with,
(b.) FX Bypasses which fade-in or fade-out when you turn an effect on or off,
...where the crossfades, fade-ins, and fade-outs all happen simultaneously over a short interval (e.g. 500ms).

That would be the perfectly smooth, gapless, zero-pop, solution.

If (a.) and (b.) existed, then, whenever you changed scenes, FX blocks you've "turned off" react by changing their Mix from 100% to 0% over an interval, so they don't abruptly end. FX blocks you've "turned on" would go from 0% to 100% over the same interval. And, at the same time, any blocks which changed channel would crossfade from the prior channel to the new one, over the same interval. Your sound would seem to quickly morph into the new sound.

I submitted feature WISH requests for these ideas, here:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/crossfading-channel-changes-in-a-block.136473/
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fx-bypass-fade-in-out-time.136578/

It turns out that the FX Bypasses which fade-in or fade-out can be done already, by means of Scene Controllers. But it doesn't look like the toggle states on the Foot Controller would correctly indicate their on/off states unless that's something the FC-series controllers can be programmed to do via fancy settings.

As for the Crossfading Channel Changes, they would work, but only by "harnessing" two instances of the same block type to be running simultaneously. (Crossfading, after all, means that during the channel change you're hearing both at once: While one is fading out, the next is fading in.) That means you'd give up the option of having two Amp blocks on your grid at the same time: The Axe FX III only has 2 Amp blocks available in the Inventory, and if you use them both to obtain one amp's worth of Crossfading Channel Changes, there aren't any left. (A price I'm willing to pay! ...but perhaps not everyone is.)

I still think a lot of people would like the option of Crossfading Channel Changes, so they could get that perfectly gap-free, non-abrupt Scene Change. But it's less easy-to-implement than some other asked-for features. If they ever implement the feature, it'll probably be after they've already done other improvements which are easier-to-implement.

We'll see.
FX bypasses are done as fades but much shorter that 500 ms. More like 20 ms.

Crossfading channels would require that two instances of an effect be running at all times. This would cut the useable CPU in half. Most people wouldn't like that.
 
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atquinn

Power User
Yeah maybe, but I figure if it knows enough to pass the signal through a chain to an assigned output, it could easily apply the noise gap to only that path changing...But thats a programmer thing.. I'll make do for now.
If only I could find an amp sounding like my clean channel on my JCM800, and then kick a good sounding distortion block in, I wouldn't need to change the channels mid song. I'll keep looking:)
Scene switching on 1.09 is insanely fast; I don't see how it would be a practical concern for anybody. Having said that, the scenario you have described should be very easy to set up completely seamlessly. If you're only looking for 2 different sounds, just use 2 different amp blocks and you'll be all set to switch seamlessly.

Austin
 

HurdyGuigui

Inspired
@FractalAudio, would it be possible to have the gap happening at a block level instead at the output level? So that last effects in the chain are not affected (ie delays, reverb, looper...)
 

bdrepko

Power User
Yeah maybe, but I figure if it knows enough to pass the signal through a chain to an assigned output, it could easily apply the noise gap to only that path changing...But thats a programmer thing.. I'll make do for now.
If only I could find an amp sounding like my clean channel on my JCM800, and then kick a good sounding distortion block in, I wouldn't need to change the channels mid song. I'll keep looking:)
This was something that bothered me in the AX8. The gap in the AX3 is much smaller. In this last firmware, it is improved even more. I tried it last night and couldn't even really hear it.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I’ve honestly had channel switching hardware amps with more gap than the III.

The III is near the limits of human auditory perception, meaning that it’s is physically impossible to “hear” an audio gap of a certain size. I know, some of you guys think you are special and can hear a gap of even 1ms, but you can’t. Thousands of hours of psychoacosics research has been done in this area. Some people can’t even perceive gaps of 40ms, due to impaired auditory systems from hearing loss. Yes, hearing loss/damage is more than just reduced thresholds, it’s also reduced frequency discrimination etc.

It’s also largely an issue of paralysis through analysis. If you sit in your room, in quiet, listening for a gap and doing everything possible to hear it, your going to notice it a lot more than in the context of a band mix. Tons of people are happily using their gear, the the II, live and don’t hear a gap. Their audience doesn’t hear a gap either.

Heck, if someone made a track, and put a few 35ms audio dropouts just in the guitar part, I don’t think anyone could pick them out. Now yes, if the tone changes you do notice that, but your not “hearing” the gap.

It’s all pretty easy experiments to do these days. Find out what the smallest gap you can detect is for a steady puretone and then see what you can observe in a track. I spent a few years in grad school doing experiments just like that. It’s both amazing what our auditory system can do, and also what it can’t do.

Of course controlled research experiments with large sample sizes often tend to have different outcomes than what musicians in gear forums believe they can hear lol.

Reason I actually went into the field was I was a guitarist first and foremost and wanted a better understanding of my hearing. We spend a fortune on gear, tuning our rigs etc, but most of us have zero idea of how accurate our hearing even is.

It’s like the guy who buys high end monitors, brags how flat they are, then complains on the forums about how muffled they sound. Odds are that guy has significant high frequency hearing loss and someone with normal hearing would say they sound fine, if not bright and revealing.

Point is, learn your auditory system and it’s limits, then determine what is and isn’t issues worth worrying about.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I’m in Florida sadly, but I honestly kind of wish we could do something like a free hearing screening day at FAS headquarters. Give folks the ability to get a good baseline measure, see if they have some signs of noise induced hearing loss, etc.

I used to work with some conservstories of music and the response was always fantastic. As musicians, be it classical, rock etc, our ears are as important as our fingers. We need to take care of them if we want a lifetime of listening and playing enjoyment.
 

Dr. Dipwad

Inspired
@FractalAudio, thanks for the reply!

I had gapless scene switching working in one of the private betas but there was a small click when certain effects would change channels.
I suspect that kind of issue will always come up, in a system that doesn't crossfade its channel-changes and its bypass-state-changes. (Admittedly, I'm not sure why it sounds like a click, rather than a mere abrupt change of timbre.) But the only way to get from a Clean amp-channel to a Distorted amp-channel perfectly smoothly will always be some kind of crossfade, even if it's only 50ms long. After all, a "gap" of 0ms is probably impossible, and the attempt (it seems) produces a "click." But even if it were possible, and produced no "click," you would still hear the abrupt shift of timbre. Only a crossfade can avoid that problem.

(I know, I sound like a broken record. Sorry! I'll finish replying to your reply, then I'll shut up!)

Crossfading channels would require that two instances of an effect be running at all times. This would cut the useable CPU in half. Most people wouldn't like that.
That'd only be true for whichever blocks had the crossfading-channels turned on. For those that didn't have it turned on (e.g., a Reverb block where you never changed channels but kept it the same for all scenes) the CPU usage would remain the same as it is today.

So a user planning a gapless set of Scene Changes would make note of which blocks change channels across scenes, and which don't. He'd activate crossfading channels for each of the blocks that change channels across scenes. He wouldn't activate it, for those that don't. And thus he wouldn't lose CPU, for those blocks.

(Shutting up about it, now.)

FX bypasses are done as fades but much shorter that 500 ms. More like 20 ms.
Really? Can you tell me more about that?

Specifically: Are you saying that FX bypasses already use a mix of Dry Path and Effect Path, and crossfade between them for 20ms, prior to flipping into bypass? (In that case, you've already implemented all the signal path aspects of https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fx-bypass-fade-in-out-time.136578/ .., and the only thing missing is the ability to adjust the time.)

That's interesting, and unexpected, if true!
 
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Icarusuki

Member
Tons of people are happily using their gear, the the II, live and don’t hear a gap. Their audience doesn’t hear a gap either.
I'm not one to complain about the gap, but I have noticed it. It is not as bad as the gaps on my Mesa Boogie Amps, so it doesn't seem to be something worth complaining about. In particular, I've had an annoyance with the gap when changing to my lead tone. In my practice room it was grating on me every time I switched it. But I was watching/listening to a video recording of our live show (shot from the crowd), and I couldn't even detect the gap. Even listening specifically for it, knowing when I pressed the button, watching myself press the button, I couldn't hear the change-over in the live setting.
 
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