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Sending Multiple Simultaneous PC/CC messages to external pedal not working

orion32773

Experienced
I have been messing with an external reverb pedal and have no issues sending a CC value to change a preset on the pedal via scene change. I can also send a PC message to change a preset as well (they just happen to have a CC value that does the same).

My issue is when I want to send multiple values on scene change - say for example; change to the hall reverb, set mix to value 95, set time to 70. The first time I hit the scene it seems to work, but once I go to another scene that has another preset/reverb type, and then go back, it does nothing. Sometimes it will send one of the messages and I can sometimes see one parameter change, but it definitely will not send the CC preset change so it stays stuck on the previous preset.

Am I doing something wrong? I was about to email support for the pedal but wanted to start here first to rule out user error.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
You could try hooking it up to your computer and using a midi monitor like Midi-OX to see what the midi stream looks like. But you'd need a midi to USB adapter to get from the midi out to the computer.

The Blocks guide does not say, but I'm assuming the scene midi block sends the midi in the sequence defined?

In that case you'll want to always send the PC first before any CCs...

It is possible that the pedal is "losing" the commands, so using the midi monitor should help confirm whether or not they are being sent.
 

orion32773

Experienced
On your last statement (I also thought about sequence so I tried that as well but it didn't help). While researching more, I found this (See Below) on the gear page which seems to point to the issue, but seems crazy that multiple messages would be a shortcoming for a midi controlled device. Wouldn't this be the point of having many CC assignments so you could adjust multiple parameters at once?

"CC messages shouldn’t have any lag like PC, the pedal is doing a massive amount of unloading reloading of data with a PC message, hence the lag. The only thing is the pedal (as well as all other source audio pedals) will only listen to one CC message at a time and ignore any additional message sent relatively close together."

Also, in reference to the "close together" comment. I'm not sure if I separate the CC messages in the block list if it will do this pause
 

unix-guy

Legend!
On your last statement (I also thought about sequence so I tried that as well but it didn't help). While researching more, I found this (See Below) on the gear page which seems to point to the issue, but seems crazy that multiple messages would be a shortcoming for a midi controlled device. Wouldn't this be the point of having many CC assignments so you could adjust multiple parameters at once?

"CC messages shouldn’t have any lag like PC, the pedal is doing a massive amount of unloading reloading of data with a PC message, hence the lag. The only thing is the pedal (as well as all other source audio pedals) will only listen to one CC message at a time and ignore any additional message sent relatively close together."

Also, in reference to the "close together" comment. I'm not sure if I separate the CC messages in the block list if it will do this pause
I think it's really dependent on the device receiving the midi.

It's a midi "stream" and the receiving side should handle the incoming commands in the order received. If you're sending only a handful of CC messages its not like you would be overrunning it. That would seem to be a poor implementation.

I don't think an empty row will cause any pause. It's probably just ignored.
 

orion32773

Experienced
ok. Yea i had 3 messages. 1st one was a preset change, and the other 2 were Mix and Time CC. It does seem like a poor implementation if this is truly the case. It's a ventris reverb btw
 

unix-guy

Legend!
It's worth confirming that the midi is being sent out properly if you have USB to midi adapter... But I'd put my money on the Ventris.
 

orion32773

Experienced
It's worth confirming that the midi is being sent out properly if you have USB to midi adapter... But I'd put my money on the Ventris.
I don't have an adapter at the moment but yes would be nice to see whats going on. I will look around for one of those or send a message over to source audio to confirm. Thanks for the help!
 

DLC86

Fractal Fanatic
I don't have an adapter at the moment but yes would be nice to see whats going on. I will look around for one of those or send a message over to source audio to confirm. Thanks for the help!
Don't you have any other midi device to test in place of the Ventris? Or an audio interface with midi i/o?
I use the midi block in the axe fx III to send multiple messages to several devices and all work flawlessly so, assuming the midi block in the fm3 works the same and doesn't have a bug, it's pretty likely the issue is in the Ventris
 

orion32773

Experienced
That’s not the issue here. It’s my ignorance on midi in the end. It’s about sending multiple messages at once to the same device. Typically from my research I’m finding this isn’t possible on most if not all devices give the midi spec. Yes, the axe Fx will send multiple CC messages on different channels to different pedals but not a bunch of CC parameter changes to the same device
 

orion32773

Experienced
I was going to do that until I found that this wasn’t really a thing lol. If you send multiple CC messages to the same device at once it gets that first one and drops the others. If someone says others otherwise I’d love to hear otherwise.
 

DLC86

Fractal Fanatic
That’s not the issue here. It’s my ignorance on midi in the end. It’s about sending multiple messages at once to the same device. Typically from my research I’m finding this isn’t possible on most if not all devices give the midi spec. Yes, the axe Fx will send multiple CC messages on different channels to different pedals but not a bunch of CC parameter changes to the same device
I meant that I often send a PC and multiple CCs simultaneously to at least one of those devices I use and it works with no issues.

Example: my guitar has an antares atg board inside, in some scenes I send a PC and 2 CCs to change guitar model, pickup and tuning. Works flawlessly
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I was going to do that until I found that this wasn’t really a thing lol. If you send multiple CC messages to the same device at once it gets that first one and drops the others. If someone says others otherwise I’d love to hear otherwise.

I think that is Correct in how midi works basically, it’s one thing at a time, and that resulting latency is why you don’t want to daisy chain a bunch of synths etc together as you won’t get tight timing.

I think usb midi was a bit of an improvement as over usb you can have multiple data streams simultaneously
 

orion32773

Experienced
But "one thing at a time" is not the same as "throw away everything else".

It's a stream and it should be processed in order.
I'm guessing it "could" process it if there was some sort of built in delay of sorts so it had time to process it. I know nothing here....only trying to think logically. Other forums say they just don't think the midi spec was ever designed like that. My thought with posting was that maybe others would chime in and say "Yea I do this all the time with the X and/or Y pedal". Most people have just said create a bunch of presets that vary in parameters and go from there with PC messages
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I'm guessing it "could" process it if there was some sort of built in delay of sorts so it had time to process it. I know nothing here....only trying to think logically. Other forums say they just don't think the midi spec was ever designed like that. My thought with posting was that maybe others would chime in and say "Yea I do this all the time with the X and/or Y pedal". Most people have just said create a bunch of presets that vary in parameters and go from there with PC messages
If it could not process many messages then things like midi continuous controller pedals would not work.
 

orion32773

Experienced
This was the response I just got from support.

"Unfortunately no, you can only send one cc at a time to the ventris. Any additional messages will be ignored if you stack cc messages and send them all at once. It’s easiest just to use PC messages and make different presets for each variation of sound, once you start messing with more than one control at a time."

So there's that. I am still curious about it all though and it would be nice to here if someone with another pedal...say a bigsky is able to do this
 
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