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Scratchy sound on this patch - same for you?

sl33py

Member
That's it Cliff!! SO grateful to know you're personally investigating :)

I assume you don't have fret buzz on the guitar you used - if you know what's causing this, could you let me know so I can make changes to my patch like Rex suggested, or let us know what can be done about it?

Thanks a billion in advance :)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Must admit I'm intrigued what it is.....,

How cool is it that Cliff of all people can check out a patch, ID what is wrong, and I bet go and fix it (assuming its a programming issue) in probably a few minutes flat....
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
You wanna know what's causing it?

THAT'S WHAT AMPS SOUND LIKE!!!!!

In fact... that's not your preset, that's the real amp (except for the last strum which is your preset).

You guys sit there with your ears against the speaker with no idea what a real amp sounds like and then complain about "artifacts". That amp gets it's distortion from the power amp. Power amp distortion is nasty (it's very hard and causes a lot of intermodulation distortion). In a mix it sounds great though and that's why those types of amps are popular.
 

greiswig

Power User
You wanna know what's causing it? THAT'S WHAT AMPS SOUND LIKE!!!!! In fact... that's not your preset, that's the real amp (except for the last strum which is your preset). You guys sit there with your ears against the speaker with no idea what a real amp sounds like and then complain about "artifacts". That amp gets it's distortion from the power amp. Power amp distortion is nasty (it's very hard and causes a lot of intermodulation distortion). In a mix it sounds great though and that's why those types of amps are popular.
It shouldn't happen on a Dumble-style amp, then, which has a very clean power section especially at low MV settings. I run my MV at 3 to try to reduce it.

Not trying to be a PITA here, honest.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
It shouldn't happen on a Dumble-style amp, then, which has a very clean power section especially at low MV settings. I run my MV at 3 to try to reduce it.

Not trying to be a PITA here, honest.
Distortion gets scratchy, especially tube distortion. Tubes do not clip softly, even preamp tubes. If you don't like the way your Axe-Fx sounds sell it and buy something that pleases you.
 

Morphosis

Fractal Fanatic



Hey all, loving FW19. Just got a quick question: If anyone else tries this patch, do you hear a kinda crackly scratchy noise (even clearer on the tail end of open chords). I'm using F031 for the cab (but I hear it with tons of the cabs, so I doubt that's the cause).

I'm not sure if it's by design or if there's a problem I need to sort out. I'm dubious it's supposed to sound as it does to my ears though

Here's a link to the patch:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11181535/scratchy.syx

Thanksin advance for any advice!
I just tried the patch and I definitely get the scratchy sound from it.

Here is my recording for comparison:
www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/scratchy.mp3

BTW I know what causes it.
That's it Cliff!! SO grateful to know you're personally investigating :)

I assume you don't have fret buzz on the guitar you used - if you know what's causing this, could you let me know so I can make changes to my patch like Rex suggested, or let us know what can be done about it?

Thanks a billion in advance :)
You wanna know what's causing it?

THAT'S WHAT AMPS SOUND LIKE!!!!!

In fact... that's not your preset, that's the real amp (except for the last strum which is your preset).

You guys sit there with your ears against the speaker with no idea what a real amp sounds like and then complain about "artifacts". That amp gets it's distortion from the power amp. Power amp distortion is nasty (it's very hard and causes a lot of intermodulation distortion). In a mix it sounds great though and that's why those types of amps are popular.

Gentlemen,

the first guy put this conversation into the mouth with undertitles into the man of this video, gets both cabIR.eu Cab-Packs for free! :

Video: https://www.facebook.com/tsigonias/videos/10155344063605574/?pnref=story

I´m serious!!!!
 

sl33py

Member
You wanna know what's causing it?
THAT'S WHAT AMPS SOUND LIKE!!!!!
You guys sit there with your ears against the speaker with no idea what a real amp sounds like and then complain about "artifacts". That amp gets it's distortion from the power amp. Power amp distortion is nasty (it's very hard and causes a lot of intermodulation distortion). In a mix it sounds great though and that's why those types of amps are popular.
I've only played a few non-MV amps (and not at great volume), so I admit a lack of experience in that area. However, please realise I was asking more in the light 'is this expected/what's causing this?' rather than 'OMG111ty there's something wrong with my AXE, I hate digital, ima-flip-it-asap', cos I do know you get a TON of those threads. The fact I hear that kinda sound in several models and not in others already made me suspect it was how I'd set up my I/O levels or similar, rather than the Axe itself; this verifies that hunch. Knowing the real amp does the same thing is as good an answer (actually, even better) than someone pointing out a bad configuration on my part. I just wanted to find out. Thanks.

PS. I don't listen with my ear up against the speaker, I'd go deaf! :) Thanks for making the Axe!
 

greiswig

Power User
. PS. I don't listen with my ear up against the speaker, I'd go deaf! :) Thanks for making the Axe!
No, but you can put a quality mic in front of it and listen to how it records, or monitor it from the booth. I don't mean a flattering mic, but a flat one like an Earthworks or an Avenson SRO. That tells you a lot about what it really sounds like.
 

sl33py

Member
Understood... I only own a Carvin V3M and a cube lol. Nothing non-MV to experiment with (nor the soundproof place!)
 

Rex

Legend!
For the record—and contrary to an earlier post—no on ever called anyone "crazy" or "an idiot" in a fizz thread. Though quite a few have said, "That's what amps sound like." :)
 

Clive

Experienced
That amp gets it's distortion from the power amp. Power amp distortion is nasty (it's very hard and causes a lot of intermodulation distortion).
So this situation gives a good example of power amp that distorts a lot. Being able to eq just between the preamp and power amp sections could really be a good thing to shape the sound. http://forum.fractalaudio.com/tech-notes/80951-power-pre-eq.html ...

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/98451-possibility-change-geq-position-amp-block.html
 

Morphosis

Fractal Fanatic
... beeing able to mix pream distortion (Drive) and power amp distortion (Master) at any levels too ...
 

guitardoc

Experienced
I have no idea what the problem is. This is exactly what tube amps sound like!! Exactly!! I had been complaining for years that this kind of distortion was not reproduced correctly in the Axe but finally Cliff had one of his epiphanies and now it is in. I (and I am sure every tube amp lover as well) am very grateful that the Axe reproduces the distortion in this astonishing quality which, BTW, no other modeler is able to. Kudos to Cliff!!
 

ozanerkal

Inspired
please realise I was asking more in the light 'is this expected/what's causing this?' rather than 'OMG111ty there's something wrong with my AXE, I hate digital, ima-flip-it-asap'
Definitely..

And thanks Cliff, after asking several times here and there, i finally got the answer to my only question: "is this normal or is it only some devices (e.g. mine) that have it?"
 

hippietim

Fractal Fanatic
You wanna know what's causing it?

THAT'S WHAT AMPS SOUND LIKE!!!!!
That's exactly what I was thinking when I listened to the first clip. The first thing I thought of was the intro to this song:

That's with the guitars volume rolled back - even the chorus doesn't mask the scratching.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
You can control the "shape" of the preamp and power amp distortion. The Preamp Hardness parameter controls the shape of the triode emulations. The lower the value the softer the distortion. The Power Amp Hardness controls the power amp clipping but that often is not noticeable because negative feedback around the power amp makes the distortion harder. Therefore you can make the power amp distortion softer by reducing Negative Feedback. A good example of this is a JCM800. A JCM800 has very hard preamp distortion (since there is no cathode bypass cap on the last stage) but has low negative feedback which softens the power amp distortion. The trick with that amp is to get the amp into the sweet spot by increasing the MV until you are getting some power amp distortion which softens the preamp distortion.

Another factor which controls power amp hardness is Transformer Match. There are two primary distortion mechanisms in a power amp: grid clipping and plate clipping (PI clipping notwithstanding as this is only audible with a post-PI MV). Grid Clipping is extremely hard, almost a hard clipper (i.e. if(x>a) then x=a). Plate clipping is much softer. However most power amps are slightly undermatched which means the grids clip before the plates clip, but only at those frequencies where the speaker impedance is "nominal". At high frequencies (above 1kHz or so) the rising impedance of the speaker causes the plates to clip before the grids. At the low frequency resonance the plates also clip first.

If you increase the transformer matching the plates will clip earlier and, since plate clipping is softer, the distortion will be softer. So turn up the Transformer Match and turn down Negative Feedback for softer power amp distortion.

However... designers know all this and they design an amp to sound best in a mix (at least the good ones do). Soft clipping sounds great when you are playing by yourself but as soon as you are in a band context the sound gets lost since hard clipping helps cut through the mix. Amps designed for rock typically have harder clipping than an amp designed for blues or jazz. A 5150, for example, has an extreme amount of negative feedback which makes the power amp very linear and clips very hard. A Deluxe Reverb, otoh, has low negative feedback and large cathode bypass caps on the last preamp stage. This makes the clipping softer and the sound less "clear".
 
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