Scene modifications question

Rublalup

Rublalup

Inspired
Hi guys,

When I’m editing a scene (changing channels of a block, or bypassing blocks) if I don’t save the presets while on that scene and go to another scene and then back the changes are losed.

Let’s say I’m on scene 2 and want to change the reverb block from channel A to B. I can change it to B and it “stays” as long as I don’t change scenes. If I save the preset while I’m scene 2 the change is storaged but if
Before saving I go to scene 1 and then back to scene 2 the Reverb channel will revert to A.

I have scene revert on, but according to the manual that shouldn’t affect the changes made in the display.

Thanks
 
If I set scene revert to off the changes made in the unit stays if I change scenes. According to the manual this is not supposed to happens.

@BryantP is this a bug?
 
Are you using the "B" knob to make these changes? I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "changes made in the display".

Edits using the B knob should remain while you're on the current preset, regardless of scene revert setting. If you were using footswitches set to bypass/channel functions, the results you described would be expected.
 
Bakerman said:
Are you using the "B" knob to make these changes? I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "changes made in the display".

Edits using the B knob should remain while you're on the current preset, regardless of scene revert setting. If you were using footswitches set to bypass/channel functions, the results you described would be expected.
Click to expand...

I’m using the buttons not the footswitches. Is a bug.
 

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I can't reproduce this.

With Scene Revert = On I:

1. Called up a preset
2. On Scene 1 I changed the AMP block from channel A to channel B using knob B from the Layout view
3. Then I used knob A to change scenes multiple times
4. Went back to Scene 1 and the AMP block was still on channel B as expected

I then:

1. Called up a fresh preset
2. On Scene 1 I bypassed the AMP block
3. Then I used knob A to change scenes multiple times
4. Went back to Scene 1 and the AMP black was still bypassed as expected

I'm running 3.01. The FM3 is NOT attached to any computer.

Please provide more details. Firmware? Is USB attached? Is FM3-Edit running? Exact steps to reproduce the problem? Maybe upload your system settings and the preset you're experiencing this with?
 
iaresee said:
I can't reproduce this.

With Scene Revert = On I:

1. Called up a preset
2. On Scene 1 I changed the AMP block from channel A to channel B using knob B from the Layout view
3. Then I used knob A to change scenes multiple times
4. Went back to Scene 1 and the AMP block was still on channel B as expected

I then:

1. Called up a fresh preset
2. On Scene 1 I bypassed the AMP block
3. Then I used knob A to change scenes multiple times
4. Went back to Scene 1 and the AMP black was still bypassed as expected

I'm running 3.01. The FM3 is NOT attached to any computer.

Please provide more details. Firmware? Is USB attached? Is FM3-Edit running? Exact steps to reproduce the problem? Maybe upload your system settings and the preset you're experiencing this with?
Click to expand...

Thanks for trying. What happens if you use the footswitches to change scenes on step 3?
 
Rublalup said:
Thanks for trying. What happens if you use the footswitches to change scenes on step 3?
Click to expand...
Then the changes get reverted. This is exactly what is supposed to happen if Scene Revert = On -- using anything other than Knob A or the up/down arrows keys to change scenes causes the changes to be reverted when you switch away and then back to a scene.

I suspect some of the confusion comes from the "front panel" wording in the manual. By "front panel" it's meant the soft knobs and the keys that surround the display on the FM3. Not the footswitches on the FM3 itself. On an Axe-Fx III this would be non-ambigous because it only has a front panel of knobs and switches. On the FM3 I can see how this wording might be a bit confusing.
 
iaresee said:
I suspect some of the confusion comes from the "front panel" wording in the manual.
Click to expand...

I don't see the phrase "front panel" in the scene revert section but it does seem to use the term "scene changes" for block channel/bypass state changes there. Otherwise the sentence "With Scene Revert turned on, Scene changes are discarded as soon as you load a new Scene" doesn't make much sense. The first phrase "Scene changes made in the display of the FM3" is also potentially confusing.

Anyway, Rubalup's observation matches what I'm seeing MIDI vs. front panel on the Axe-FX II. A scene select CC (or FM3/FCx scene select switch, it seems) will always retrieve the saved bypass & channel states if scene revert = on. The method of altering block channel & bypass state doesn't actually matter. I don't know if that part is different on the Axe III & FM3.
 
Bakerman said:
I don't see the phrase "front panel" in the scene revert section
Click to expand...

I must have a beta copy of the maunal on disk here.

Bakerman said:
Anyway, Rubalup's observation matches what I'm seeing MIDI vs. front panel on the Axe-FX II. A scene select CC (or FM3/FCx scene select switch, it seems) will always retrieve the saved bypass & channel states if scene revert = on. The method of altering block channel & bypass state doesn't actually matter. I don't know if that part is different on the Axe III & FM3.
Click to expand...

The behavior is as described in the online FM3 manual and is spelled out pretty clearly:

Screen Shot 2020-12-26 at 3.22.36 PM.png

Other than the FM3 having footswitches near the "display" making what constitutes "in the display" potentially confusing, the behavior is the same between the FM3 and the III here.
 
What happens if you try the manual's example with scene revert on, switching scenes in steps 3 & 4 with the front panel (nav buttons or knob A)?

I don't think the manual is clear because it's using the phrase "scene changes" to refer to something that's "discarded" which apparently means the bypass & channel states. The method used to switch back to scene 1 (step 4) is what actually matters, it seems. Step 2 being performed with a footswitch or not doesn't actually matter, as Rubalup has noticed.
 
Bakerman said:
What happens if you try the manual's example with scene revert on, switching scenes in steps 3 & 4 with the front panel (nav buttons or knob A)?
Click to expand...
The state change I made with the footswitch persists. As expected. As long as you change scenes with the front panel buttons, state changes persist no matter if they're made from the front panel or from footswitches.

If I change scenes with footswitches the state changes are lost and the scene is reverted.

It's working as intended.

I don't think the manual is clear because it's using the phrase "scene changes" to refer to something that's "discarded" which apparently means the bypass & channel states. The method used to switch back to scene 1 (step 4) is what actually matters, it seems. Step 2 being performed with a footswitch or not doesn't actually matter, as Rubalup has noticed.
Click to expand...
That isn't what @Rublalup reported. He said:

Rublalup said:
I have scene revert on, but according to the manual that shouldn’t affect the changes made in the display.
Click to expand...

And my tests show that changes made from the display are not impacted by scene revert being on. They remain in effect when changing scenes.

What am I misunderstanding the the supposed bug being called out here? I see none.

@Rublalup provide precise instructions for what you doing and the expected outcomes at each step if you'd like further help. Otherwise, there doesn't appear to be a bug here.
 
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iaresee said:
The state change I made with the footswitch persists. As expected. As long as you change scenes with the front panel buttons, state changes persist no matter if they're made from the front panel or from footswitches.

If I change scenes with footswitches the state changes are lost and the scene is reverted.

It's working as intended.


That isn't what @Rublalup reported. He said:



And my tests show that changes made from the display are not impacted by scene revert being on. They remain in effect when changing scenes.

What am I misunderstanding the the supposed bug being called out here? I see none.

@Rublalup provide precise instructions for what you doing and the expected outcomes at each step if you'd like further help. Otherwise, there doesn't appear to be a bug here.
Click to expand...

It’s ok. Was not very clear in the manual, but now I understand that with scene revert on if I change a parameter and use the footswitches to go to another scene that changes will be lost when I return. It makes sense as you are intending to mantain the Scene as last saved.

Maybe a warning note on the manual referring not to use footswitches at all when editing scenes in that scenario would be advisable.

Thanks a lot. I learned a new thing!
 
iaresee said:
The state change I made with the footswitch persists. As expected. As long as you change scenes with the front panel buttons, state changes persist no matter if they're made from the front panel or from footswitches.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you performed steps 1-4 here.

BkXpfD0.png


This list doesn't say how you need to switch scenes in step 4, right? Your result is opposite of that stated in step 5. This is what might confuse some users, and seems to be what Rubalup encountered.

The manual is unclear that the scene selection method matters, not how you change the block state before that. It's also wrong (or a bit vague at least) about when these changes actually get discarded. That happens when you reload the original scene (via footswitch or CC), not simply switching to "a new scene" (I assume this means any other scene as in step 3 above).

-------------
Saved block state for scene 1 = OFF (throughout)
Turn block ON (any method)
Edit buffer (what you see/hear) state of block in scene 1 = ON
Switch scenes (any method)
Edit buffer state of block in scene 1 = still ON

finally,

Select scene 1 via front panel UI knob:
Edit buffer state is used (block ON)

or

Select scene 1 via footswitch/CC:
Saved block state is retrieved (block OFF)
(This could also be done after returning to scene 1 via UI and seeing the block ON. It will always retrieve the saved OFF state which becomes the new edit buffer state again.)
--------------

Here's how I'd revise that part of the manual:

KwviwZ3.png
 
Bakerman said:
This list doesn't say how you need to switch scenes in step 4, right? Your result is opposite of that stated in step 5. This is what might confuse some users, and seems to be what Rubalup encountered.
Click to expand...
Ah. Yes, I see what you're getting at. You are, as usual, correct -- the manual doesn't state that the change have to be made via MIDI CC or FC footswitch in order for the scene edits to revert to their saved values.

Bakerman said:
The manual is unclear that the scene selection method matters, not how you change the block state before that. It's also wrong (or a bit vague at least) about when these changes actually get discarded. That happens when you reload the original scene (via footswitch or CC), not simply switching to "a new scene" (I assume this means any other scene as in step 3 above).

-------------
Saved block state for scene 1 = OFF (throughout)
Turn block ON (any method)
Edit buffer (what you see/hear) state of block in scene 1 = ON
Switch scenes (any method)
Edit buffer state of block in scene 1 = still ON

finally,

Select scene 1 via front panel UI knob:
Edit buffer state is used (block ON)

or

Select scene 1 via footswitch/CC:
Saved block state is retrieved (block OFF)
(This could also be done after returning to scene 1 via UI and seeing the block ON. It will always retrieve the saved OFF state which becomes the new edit buffer state again.)
--------------

Here's how I'd revise that part of the manual:

KwviwZ3.png
Click to expand...
CC @Admin M@ who authors the manual. These edits do make it all much clearer.
 
Good stuff guys. These subtleties are great to clarify in the manual. Does any of this apply to the AF3 as well?
 
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