Scene Controller

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

Having watched one of Leon Todd's videos, I decided to use Scene controllers to have different amounts of drive on different scenes - really easy to do.

However, with my set up, I found some strange behaviour. I have my preset set for the amp block with the Suhr Badger 30 as X and SLO100 rhythm as Y.

When I go from a clean sound on the Badger to the SLO100 with the gain wound back from its original value, it's as if it surges to the original level without the scene controller (6.5 on the gain) and then drops back to the "throttling" of the scene which is set at 50% - which I understand equates to the gain being at 5.

Now of course I can work around this....but if I played an open chord and then moved from my scene with the Badger to the SLO100 it would sound really odd. It's an odd volume spike.

Has anyone experienced this, or are there any ways to work around it?

If I go from my Badger 30 on clean to a different scene where the SLO100 is on 6.5 gain (so the scene is set at 65%), it just goes from the clean to the high gain sound....it doesn't have this momentary surge in gain and volume....so it doesn't seem to be simply a case of moving between amps.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Habuman]

Post your preset for a check.

I just created this using Scene 1 for Suhr Badger and Scene 2 for Solo 100 Lead. Did not add any scene controllers for volume. Just leveled the volume between X and Y. Is this what you trying for?

Also, where are you linking your scene controllers? Input Drive, Cab?

 

[chris]

Controllers are shared between x and y. You probably didn’t setup the scene controller for the next scene.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi, I'll post it later today....but the issue is when applying a scene controller for input drive....knocking the input drive back. So the input drive was 6.5, which I believe would be 65% for the scene controller, and I had knocked it back to 50%....

 

[chris]

Hi, I'll post it later today....but the issue is when applying a scene controller for input drive....knocking the input drive back. So the input drive was 6.5, which I believe would be 65% for the scene controller, and I had knocked it back to 50%....

I don’t understand this.

 

[andyg_prs]

Not sure I'm yet allowed to post URLs, let me try.

 

[andyg_prs]

Right captured it in audio and also have the preset. Please try scene 1....turn on the distortion stomp....then go to scene 3. Not sure if everything comes along in the presets but I have stomps 1-4 in my bottom row of switches and my stomps on the top 4.

**updated with soundcloud audio.....

 

[Habuman]

Something going on with the Drive block. If the Drive block is not engaged in scene 1 and switch to scene 3 the increase/decrease of volume does not happen. Trying to find fault but unsuccessful right now. Something easy I'm sure but just not seeing it right now...No sleep will do that I guess.

 

[chris]

the cpu in this preset is a bit high, so things are switching slowly.

the main issue is that in Scene 1, the drive block volume is only 3 (out of 10). and your amp block volume is very high, around 0dB.

if you bypass the drive block in S1, your preset clips because the amp block is too loud. i'd level your preset with the drive off first, making sure it doesn't clip - adjust the Amp level to do this.

for my setup, putting Amp Y to -10 dB got me to the line on the VU meter. that means it was almost 11dB too loud using the mid line as a reference. then the Drive block Level could be set to 5dB to hit the VU line.

once this is level, then turn on the drive block and adjust the volume there for your desired effect.

because the CPU is high and the preset is changing things slowly, you first load the very loud amp block, then a moment later the Drive block kicks on which reduces the volume due to its very low setting.

if you can reduce the CPU on this preset, it will be better in general. reducing the Echo Density in the Reverb block can help with this. for the AX8, i generally try to stay under 80% for fastest switching.

also there are 2 volume blocks in the preset. the first seems to be used with an expression pedal - this one is fine. but the 2nd seems to just have a 2+ dB boost. it seems that this block is engaging late as well, causing the volume dips when you change scenes. even without adjusting anything else, removing this block makes things much faster.

 

[andyg_prs]

Something going on with the Drive block. If the Drive block is not engaged in scene 1 and switch to scene 3 the increase/decrease of volume does not happen. Trying to find fault but unsuccessful right now. Something easy I'm sure but just not seeing it right now...No sleep will do that I guess.

Yes! But very strange because it doesn't cause that same boost if the scene volume for scene 3 is left at 65% to match the original input drive of 6.5...

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for your detailed response. Please excuse me being a noob....I have lots of questions, but this will accelerate my learning! I suspect timezones are working against us, and I won't see your response until tomorrow as it is gone 11:30pm here in the uk.....

Thanks,
Andy

the cpu in this preset is a bit high, so things are switching slowly.

Sorry, unfortunately because my AX8 is currently in the studio for testing tones at band volumes I can't check right now, but I don't recall it being higher than any of my other scenes - was it 67% or so? What CPU level starts to impact performance?

the main issue is that in Scene 1, the drive block volume is only 3 (out of 10). and your amp block volume is very high, around 0dB.

if you bypass the drive block in S1, your preset clips because the amp block is too loud. i'd level your preset with the drive off first, making sure it doesn't clip - adjust the Amp level to do this.

Where are you seeing the preset clip please? If I take the amp level down, what control would I use to compensate and get the overall output higher?

for my setup, putting Amp Y to -10 dB got me to the line on the VU meter. that means it was almost 11dB too loud using the mid line as a reference. then the Drive block Level could be set to 5dB to hit the VU line.

Another noob question, I've just looked up the VU meter in the manual....the line is 0dB and then to the right of each line I see the actual level, 3dB in the manual, correct? What number should I be aiming for?

once this is level, then turn on the drive block and adjust the volume there for your desired effect.

I want the overall levels as they are now. The drive level on the drive block is the same one that works well against the Badger and the SLO100. So if I can get the clean level as it is now (there may be the volume stomp that is shown on the display engaged so happy to turn that off and boost the level back to meet that...leaving it on was a quick and dirty fix) then the drive pedal as used now works for me.

because the CPU is high and the preset is changing things slowly, you first load the very loud amp block, then a moment later the Drive block kicks on which reduces the volume due to its very low setting.

I understood the amp block was loud on Scene 1 - the Badger (clean). Are you saying the SLO100 is very loud too? When I add the drive block to the SLO100, it doesn't reduce the volume to my ears?

if you can reduce the CPU on this preset, it will be better in general. reducing the Echo Density in the Reverb block can help with this. for the AX8, i generally try to stay under 80% for fastest switching.

I'll go and look at the Echo Density. I started with the presets I imported from my bandmate, but he said he had only used standard settings. So, I'm surprised the Reverb block has anything unusual. I'm not looking for anything whacky with the reverb....just a bit of reverb!

also there are 2 volume blocks in the preset. the first seems to be used with an expression pedal - this one is fine. but the 2nd seems to just have a 2+ dB boost. it seems that this block is engaging late as well, causing the volume dips when you change scenes. even without adjusting anything else, removing this block makes things much faster.

One volume boost was the original one a 2.83dB boost- again from my bandmate...and it was just a simple volume boost for solos. I put in the other one in to use with my expression pedal. When you say engaging late...I didn't think the simple volume boost...the one that correlates to a stomp controller on the upper row....was even on for Scene 3...do you mean it is turning on or off slowly? Why do you think this would be? I do like having the option of that simple small boost there.

Finally, as per my response to Habuman, it's..."very strange because it doesn't cause that same boost if the scene volume for scene 3 is left at 65% to match the original input drive of 6.5."

 

[6L6C]

Right captured it in audio and also have the preset. Please try scene 1....turn on the distortion stomp....then go to scene 3. Not sure if everything comes along in the presets but I have stomps 1-4 in my bottom row of switches and my stomps on the top 4.

**updated with soundcloud audio.....

Hey Andy
Found the problem, I believe. You tell me. Took your file and made one change.
Whats causing that little volume spike between scenes 1 & 3 is that first delay you have in the chain. for scene 1 it's in a "Y" state, scenes 2 & 3 it's in "X". When your in scene 2 going to 3 no problem that delay block goes into bypass and that's it. However scene 1 into 3, now that block is changing from a "Y" state to "X" it does go into bypass for scene 3 however.
I think (guessing) what is happening when you go scene 1 to 3 that delay block is loading to its "X" state then bypassing, takes a little more time to bypass. Meanwhile for a short time (fraction of a second) it's feeding into the second delay has already become active.



So the change was simple! In scene 1 changed the delay to its "X" state. Noticed the "X" and "Y" states of that delay were pretty much identical anyway, even if you did use different delay models. The mix was different but you can use a scene controller for that. Watch those modifiers also they can bring about odd behavior to a preset.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

A grateful but perplexed Andy here!

@6L6C - The delay thing fixed the problem Actually Delay 1 is active for S1 but not S3. However it was in a different state in S3. I wanted how it was in the active scene so changed it in S3.

But I’m super confused - how can the state of an inactive block make a difference?

@Habuman - the issue did only happen with drive engaged on S1 - something to do with the levels/sound when switching to S3...gain does augment “stuff”

Next @chris 1. I tried changing the Reverb’s echo density. At most it bought the cpu util down by 3 or 4 percent and the surge issue persisted.

2. and most strange, where is the VU meter? I went through every utility and it’s not there! I also looked through the global and io menus but no luck.

I’m on the latest firmware. The status screen was the nearest but not what I need I think.

Thanks
Andy

ps - apology for rushed post from phone - juggling childcare...

 

[6L6C]

Hi,

A grateful but perplexed Andy here!

@6L6C - The delay thing fixed the problem Actually Delay 1 is active for S1 but not S3. However it was in a different state in S3. I wanted how it was in the active scene so changed it in S3.

But I’m super confused - how can the state of an inactive block make a difference?

From my post above:
I think (guessing) what is happening when you go scene 1 to 3 that delay block is loading to its "X" state then bypassing, takes a little more time to bypass. Meanwhile for a short time (fraction of a second) it's feeding into the second delay that has already become active.

Had tried a few things. Ran both delays in parallel, figured run a direct feed from the volume block to the reverb and kill the direct signal from outputting through the delay blocks. It did help but there was still a slight volume spike
.
For me: X/Y is awesome and I'm glad to have it, but at the same time try to avoid using it (but I do use it from time to time)
I find with the time based effects it can really introduce some random craziness, like what is happening here. Even with something like a drive block, I rather use two drive blocks (if the CPU permits it) then one drive with a X/Y. But! Much more comfortable using a drive block with X/Y as opposed to delay or reverb.

BTW: what is going on with the volume blocks? One has a modifier attached at the level. Are you using this as a boost? And the other has nothing attached to it, in essence a glorified shunt.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi @6L6C , this message from a lay-by on my road journey . I need to get used to these peculiarities.

I’m moving from Kemper. It was mainly used for my prog rock/metal band Midnight Sun. Had all the sounds for the various song parts in a single performance - which kind of maps onto a preset with its scenes and stomps.

My fave Kemper feature was Morph. You have one sound,with whichever effects, push an expression pedal toe down- tweak any parameters of the amp/effects in use, heel down back to where you were, save. Hey presto two states you can incrementally morph between.

My lead sound changed the volume/gain of the amp, added mid and bass, cut treble and presence and boosted the mix and feedback on the delay.

So, on the AX8 one volume is a 2.86dB boost that maps to a foot switch (the second from left on the top row from memory).

The other volume is still 2.86dB but maps to an expression pedal (pedal 2 from memory?). I also have mix and feedback of one of the delay blocks mapped to the same pedal. Finally, nearest I could get to the B, M, T, P morph was to set the 3 band eq to come on once the pedal is pushed more than 20% or so.

Now you know, if you open in AX8 edit it’ll become more apparent.

It’s far from perfect but I got the unit and a week later used it at a festival.

Lots yet to learn and experiment with.

I’m a bit perturbed about this clipping thing, where the VU meter is, and how I should be balancing my sounds as I’m told I’ve got it wrong.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Andy

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi guys, not sure if I need to start a new thread for this...if no replies, I'll probably do that.

I've found the VU meter. Referring to @chris 's comments - I've had a good look and:

My Suhr amp level is 0.8dB and playing hard I cross the 0dB line - to 2 or 3dB....but always green on clip LEDs
The SLO is -14.4dB and just reaches the line.

I actually intentionally used the level rather than Master Volume to balance the levels as a Leon Todd video seemed to show that was the best way not to change the character of the amp.

Am I missing something fundamental, or another way to balance the volumes.

I actually have the 2.86dB volume boost block as a quick and dirty way of supplementing this, getting everything to sound right to my ears.

Again, is there something wrong with this?

EDIT or is the point that I should be taking the SLO amp level down further so that I need take the Suhr amp level up less?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[chris]

Hi guys, not sure if I need to start a new thread for this...if no replies, I'll probably do that.

I've found the VU meter. Referring to @chris 's comments - I've had a good look and:

My Suhr amp level is 0.8dB and playing hard I cross the 0dB line - to 2 or 3dB....but always green on clip LEDs
The SLO is -14.4dB and just reaches the line.

I actually intentionally used the level rather than Master Volume to balance the levels as a Leon Todd video seemed to show that was the best way not to change the character of the amp.

Am I missing something fundamental, or another way to balance the volumes.

I actually have the 2.86dB volume boost block as a quick and dirty way of supplementing this, getting everything to sound right to my ears.

Again, is there something wrong with this?

EDIT or is the point that I should be taking the SLO amp level down further so that I need take the Suhr amp level up less?

Thanks,
Andy

using Level is the intended method of balancing volume. Master Volume changes the amount of Power Amp Distortion in addition to volume.

nothing wrong with getting level in different ways. but you could optimize things by setting the amp levels properly. you seem to be close enough.

with my guitar, your preset on the clean tone was clipping by 12 dB or so. your guitar may be different.