Routings and Effects

T

terdfurgunson

Inspired
So Ive been an axe user for about a year now. I have the two now and I would love so guidance on the question. This is more of a basic effects question but would love to hear some suggestions.

Last night I saw Mutemath for the first time and was directly in front of the guitar players pedalboard (so much JHS goodness, if you want pictures of the board or his effects list...a sheet of where he placed each knob...had it sitting on stage and I grabbed it after; message me). But on the drive home I began to evaluate my effects chains and if I am placing them where they should be a such.

So my question is....is there a proper place to place effects?

Example. Should a delay be post cab in my chain? Or should my distortion be placed prior to my amp? Or reverb at the end?

My chain is normally along the lines of drive->Amp->vol->delay1->reverb1->cab->any other random effects.

I enjoy the sound of it but I just wanna know if there is more to it or tricks that I could be missing

If this has been asked and if this is annoying for you to see this I really do apologize but my curiosity is peaked.

Thanks for any help!
 
well i typically put the delay and reverb after the cab, and route them in parallel, so neither really affects the other, but I send some of the delay thru the reverb sometimes too. There are no right and wrong ways, I like to experiment, and do all sorts of things people say NOT to do, and sometimes I get good results, sometimes not, but with the axe, it's not like you can break things.....so experiment! With real amps and cabs and pedals you can break things (i've broken stuff before LOL) but with the axe it's all virtual.....so screw tradition and put a cab before an amp if you want! :D

just don't say I said to do that :p
 
My 2 cents...

Modulation Effects- I generally put them after the cab, but I know that there are many guys who have them up front before the amp. After the cab gives you a more subtle, polished, studio-style sound. Before the amp gives you a more pronounced, live, up-front effect.

Wah and Drive- I generally go drive-wah-drive before the amp. That way I can have a drive on before the wah to give me a more modern sounding wah effect. Wah-drive gives more of the vintage, Hendrixy feel. If you're feeling crazy, you can run the wah after the amp.

Compression- If I have compression on a patch I typically place it first in the chain. I use it on really clean patches (think Fender amp with little master) and occasionally on solos (it really helps with the pinch harmonics). I never use it on my rhythm patches because I want as much dynamic range as possible.

Delays/Reverbs- Both go post-cab. I use delay on many patches, but only use reverb sparingly because I don't like to wash out my tone. The exception is when I'm going for a "super-big, cathedral-style, sound bouncing everywhere" patch. And if I'm doing that, I run them in series so the delays feed into the reverb. I'm probably in the minority here, but that's just how I roll...

Hope this helps!
-AL
 
^ yup, that's all traditionally correct in a tube amp and pedalboard setup. you generally can't go wrong with that order, that's about the way most of us are used to hearing it, and the way most of us will agree it sounds best.

but with the axe, a new generation of sounds is available to guitar players (and bassists! I can't forget bassists, I'm one too LOL), so the above guidelines no longer hold valid.....you can pretty much put anything anywhere, and route things all over the place. Sometime a tape drive between the amp and cab works (you'd NEVER want to do something like that in a pedal-board simulator, you'd blow things to hell LOL), and sometimes a compressor after the cab works as well. Sometimes the wah sounds good after everything, and sometimes it sounds good before.

Bottom line, just try stuff.....there's no limit to what you can do with the axe! Well unless you're like me and almost always at max cpu LOL!!!! :D
 
If you are going for "amp in the room feel" that a lot of the guys in here seem to prefer, you should put your effects like you would in "the real world" Pedals before the amp. Reverb between the Amp and Cabs.

The Axe gives you the oportunity to experiment though, so DO THAT.

I prefer the "studio" like approach for most of my sounds, but I love the possibillity of the AXE to do both.

Greetings

AAEN
 
Pretty sounds advice here. I would add a couple of things.

First be aware of which effects are mono. Drive, amps, and cabs (set to mono) in particular. If you place a stereo effect in front of these you can get some issues. For example if you have a delay with one channel phased reversed in front of a mono effect block the L and R channel of the delay will phase cancel each other and you will get no delay.


Also, placing delays and reverb before the amp blocks can create a cool smear. I uses it when I want the delay/reverb less pristine and more washed out. Really want ever sounds best, it so easy to experiment with the axe-fx, why not try.
 
I did a ton of experimentation with this sort of thing......
here's what I found...

volume pedal: guitar straight into the vol pedal
wah: I find this is best as the next effect.. if there is no vol pedal then guitar straight into the wah..
compressor: I preferred this before the amp but this is because I use it to hot up the signal going into the amp more than anything else [my comp setting is usually very gentle]..
distortion pedals: I tend not to use them but if I did they'd be placed before the amp

ambient FX: I always place these after them amp.. but what first reverb or delay?
under normal circumstances I preferred delay then reverb.. but placing them in parallel is also another great option..

modulation / pitch: for me if depends upon the effect in question
pitch / harmonizer - after the amp.. placing these before the amp can make them muddy if you are using hi-gain tones
chorus: before the amp [with moderate to hi-gain] will soften the effect, placed after the amp will make it clear and strong. I like this after the amp.
flanger: same as the chorus
phaser: placing this after the amp can result in having the effect itself overpowering the notes.. this means that you have to use gentler settings.. placing it before the amp softens the effect but in a nice way.. and the phaser can really get involved in the driven tone so you can have stronger settings without it getting in the way.. depending upon what I'm looking for I'd place this one before or after the amp... generally before though...
univibe: this is basically the same as the phaser... the only difference for me is that I'd always place it before the amp..

noise gate: I always place this immediately after the amp [or thing that is generating the hi-gain]

note that these are just my personal preferences.. and depending upon the tone I'm trying to create these things may change...
there are no hard and fast rules.. your ears are the best judge in the end...
 
"noise gate: I always place this immediately after the amp [or thing that is generating the hi-gain]"

Since the axe-fx amp models do not have noise of there own (unlike real amps) the thing generating the noise is at the input.
 
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So, you can try this effects order most of the time:

Filter -> Gain -> Amp -> Cab -> Modulation -> Ambience (Delay/Reverb)

Modulation (chorus, etc.) and Ambience can come before or after the amp/cab. Before for traditional pedal approach and after for a bit more clarity.
(Make sure to understand stereo implications if going before amp/cabs)
PitchShift between Amp/Cab can be good.
Usually put compressor first

No right way but this is a good routing imho.
 
javajunkie said:
"noise gate: I always place this immediately after the amp [or thing that is generating the hi-gain]"

Since the axe-fx amp models do not have noise of there own (unlike real amps) the thing generating the noise is at the input.
Click to expand...

I'll have to give this a good looking at.. because if I only have to gate at the input and not post 'dirt unit', I'll not need to dynamically control the gate's threshold via the side chain [something we talked about a while back]...

I really need to start compiling all these little snippets of info so I have all this to hand when designing my patch config...
 
clarky said:
I'll have to give this a good looking at.. because if I only have to gate at the input and not post 'dirt unit', I'll not need to dynamically control the gate's threshold via the side chain [something we talked about a while back]...

I really need to start compiling all these little snippets of info so I have all this to hand when designing my patch config...
Click to expand...


I wish I could find the posts where cliff was talking about this, but I think the were lost in the forum move. I was placing the cabs after and using the side chain and cliff stated there was a slight advantage to placing them before. I cannot remember why. It is easy to tell that the amps do not generate there own noise. Use the global, when it is gating you here absolutely no noise (try that with a real amp and you'll have hiss).

I've used it before the amp and after, both seem to work fine. I pretty much always set side chain to input1.
 
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I guess the 'no noise' is because the amp block is digital.. it is essentially a binary calculator so it makes sense that it'd generate no inherent noise of it's own..
so it also makes sense that killing the noise at source is the way to go...

thinking more on this... the signal to noise ratio at the input should be significantly lower than the signal to noise ratio after compression and high gain have been applied.. so in theory I imagine that you could expect to get away with far more relaxed gate settings because the gate is located just after the input...

if my thinking here holds true this is certainly a win win situation...
lower gate settings will always be better.. and not having to dynamically control the gate leads to a simpler config...

I also note from AxeEdit that when clicking on the 'input' there is a gate there...
I take it this means that I can use this one and not have to add a gate block within the grid itself..
if this is the case then I win again.. less cpu??
 
That is what sidechaining to the input does. It detects the level at the input so you can relax the gate settings. The gate block is more configurable than the global. I think it may use a different algorithm as well. But the global gate if the global gate get the job done, it gets the job done. As long as it closes and opens the way you need, that is all that matters in this case.
 
cool... so here's the plan....

the guitar's signal level will not change in any major way [only switching between pups - both are humbuckers]
so I'm hoping that irrespective of the type of patch [clean, hi-gain etc] the gating requirements at the input should be roughly the same maybe??
if this is truly the case then maybe I can have a single input gate setting that works for everything...

and of course if not, I'll abandon the input gate and use the gate block, controlled via the side chain with settings that are patch specific..

and now... I just need to get my hands on an Axe2... lol...
 
javajunkie said:
That is what sidechaining to the input does. It detects the level at the input so you can relax the gate settings. The gate block is more configurable than the global. I think it may use a different algorithm as well. But the global gate if the global gate get the job done, it gets the job done. As long as it closes and opens the way you need, that is all that matters in this case.
Click to expand...

your comments spurred me to do a little experiment..
ok so I don't have my Axe2 yet, I have a VG-99.. but like the Axe it's all modelling so I made the assumption that in this respect they may behave similarly....

I placed the noise surpressor right on the input and experimented with threshold and release values, dissabled dynamic control over the threshold parameter so that when I wiggle my expression pedal the amp gain, compressor threshold and all my other bits and pieces change but the gate thresh remains static..

the outcome was surprising [at least to me.. lol..]...
I didn't need to gate quite as hard here because the amp model in isolation is silent [as you'd expect with convolution / modelling technologies - now that you pointed it out to me]
however, a 'one gate fits all' approach though didn't quite work..
with the gate in the input possition you don't need to gate quite as hard, but you still need to open it up when EXPing to a cleaner tone..

and the advantages of gating less are obvious both in terms of playability and tone..
so... thanks to you... lol... I now have to go and re-work all my patches to get this lil' enhancement in...

NOTE: ok so this is not an Axe2 I've been experimenting with and I would expect to find differences to some degree, but in general I think it'd be reasonable to assume the principle to be the same / similar...

so your solution looks to be the optimal one
place the gate at the input
dynamically control the threshold in the Axe2 via the side chain
and in my current situation with the VG-99 by assigning it to one of the EXP pedals [as I do already but with gentler values]...
 
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You don't need to use the side chain if the gate is the first block.

Also, the global gate is set per preset so you can use that w/ different setting for each preset if it works for you.
 
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ahhh.... my fault I should have been a little clearer...

I configure my dirty patches to 'clean up' in a similar way that an ol' skool player would clean up his real amp tone via the volume control on the guitar..
I do this via an EXP pedal.. doing it this way means that I can have far greater control over the tone in it's min and max settings..
controlling the gate and compressor threshold parms is therefore quite important to me..

ok.. so given that I don't have an Axe yet there'd be little point in me going through a detailed description right now cos that'd all be with respect to the VG-99 [which I doubt anyone in here would be interested in.. lol]..
and having had many detailed chats with knowledgeable folk like yourself I can see that to achieve my requirements I'll need a slightly different approach to the one I have today in the VG [no big surprise there really]..

I do have AxeEdit installed on my Mac and I have created some theoritical configs that look promising..
when I get the Axe I'll find out if they work... lol...
I have to say that I love the grid concept..

actually - on a slightly different tack - I was going to ask you guys if you'd think that a progammable shunt block could be a good idea..
you could have it X-Y controlled so that you could switch between two different configs
example
shunt in X position
input side is row A / output side is rows A and B

in the Y position
input side is row A / output side is row C

this means that without having to change patch you could call up different chains of effects beyond a specific point in your config

don't know if this would be useful to anyone, it was just something that occured to me the other day...
 
I remember why you did now. We had discussed this a while back. Short memory on my part.

You can do a programmable shunt block type thing now using a mixer block.

You can also use the bypass modifiers set to opposite start/end points on the first block of each effects chain (then set the bypass mode to mute or mute in)
 
haaaa..... the Axe keeps catching me out...
you think of something that could be cool and it turns out that the functionality pretty much already exists but not the way you thought of it.....

when I finally get my Axe [which I'm hoping will be before the end of the year but more likely early next year I guess] and get it config'd to my personal needs, if folk are interested I'll create a thread with a detailed breakdown of what it does and how it goes about it...
there may be folk out there that - like me - would prefer an alternative approach to the more common two config methods:
- clean patch, riff patch, soloing patch etc
or
- patch behaves like an amp with stompies
 
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