Routing For WDW With Axe And A Preamp

[CudBucket]

I'm sorry but I've searched and don't believe I see anyone doing what I'd like to try. In a nutshell, I want to have a WDW rig with both my Axe Fx and an Egnater M4 preamp. I'd use a VHT 2/50/2 for the dry to a Bogner 2x12 and a Carvin DCM150 for the wet to 2 CAA 1x12 cubes.

What I want to be able to achieve is:

1) Egnater M4 dry to center with Axe FX Effects only to wet
2) Axe Fx amp sims dry to center and Axe Fx Effects to wet.

The standard 4CM seems like it would be fine for stereo only but I'm not sure about WDW. The M4 has two outputs so I could of course send one to the VHT/Bogner for dry, but I that wouldn't give me the Axe Fx amp sim. I have a GCX so I suppose I could put that output and a feed from the Axe Fx in a loop and switch between the two but that seems cumbersome.

I'm almost willing to abandon WDW if I can't do this. Maybe stereo will have to be good enough. I just got my Standard yesterday and haven't been able to play it.

Thanks.

Dave

 

[Bakerman]

You could use the other Out2 jack (Axe loop send) for your dry signal. With Axe amp sim, just connect it (panned to the correct side) to the FXL block as well as your wet effects going to Out 1. With Egnater, run FXL block into send block, place return block earlier in routing running to FXL. You can have the Egnater return to the opposite side jack of what fed it (Out 2 L, In 2 R, send/return, Out 2 R) to have this work with no further blocks, but you might still want to use a vol/filter block panning everything full right between the return and FXL blocks. That way if the FXL ever got bypassed, the vol block prevents a feedback loop. And if you do the Out 2 L - In 2 R routing, that prevents feedback if the vol block ever gets bypassed.

 

[CudBucket]

You could use the other Out2 jack (Axe loop send) for your dry signal. With Axe amp sim, just connect it (panned to the correct side) to the FXL block as well as your wet effects going to Out 1. With Egnater, run FXL block into send block, place return block earlier in routing running to FXL. You can have the Egnater return to the opposite side jack of what fed it (Out 2 L, In 2 R, send/return, Out 2 R) to have this work with no further blocks, but you might still want to use a vol/filter block panning everything full right between the return and FXL blocks. That way if the FXL ever got bypassed, the vol block prevents a feedback loop. And if you do the Out 2 L - In 2 R routing, that prevents feedback if the vol block ever gets bypassed.

By "FXL" do you mean "effects loop"?

 

[CudBucket]

BTW, is noone else using the Axe Fx this way? I know I'm at the very beginning of the learning curve, and I am reading the manual and as much as I can on this forum but right now, I'm feeling a bit buried.

I think the recommendation above might work but I'm not completely understanding it.

Dave

 

[mik]

You just made my head hurt .. lol :lol:

I really tried to think of a way for like 15 mins .. and realized that without your units in front of me I wouldn't be able to think of a solution... I got a couple ideas but not sure if it works until I try it with the actual preamps ..

Try sending it to support .. they will know the inside functionality of a couple of blocks tht I am not too sure about,

Mik.

I'm sorry but I've searched and don't believe I see anyone doing what I'd like to try. In a nutshell, I want to have a WDW rig with both my Axe Fx and an Egnater M4 preamp. I'd use a VHT 2/50/2 for the dry to a Bogner 2x12 and a Carvin DCM150 for the wet to 2 CAA 1x12 cubes.

What I want to be able to achieve is:

1) Egnater M4 dry to center with Axe FX Effects only to wet
2) Axe Fx amp sims dry to center and Axe Fx Effects to wet.

The standard 4CM seems like it would be fine for stereo only but I'm not sure about WDW. The M4 has two outputs so I could of course send one to the VHT/Bogner for dry, but I that wouldn't give me the Axe Fx amp sim. I have a GCX so I suppose I could put that output and a feed from the Axe Fx in a loop and switch between the two but that seems cumbersome.

I'm almost willing to abandon WDW if I can't do this. Maybe stereo will have to be good enough. I just got my Standard yesterday and haven't been able to play it.

Thanks.

Dave

 

[Bakerman]

By "FXL" do you mean "effects loop"?

Yes. Here's an illustration of a potential routing, just M4 with delay:



You'd pan the guitar signal left before it gets to the FXL block so it only goes out of the Out 2 left jack to the M4, which returns the signal to one Input 2 jack. From there, one copy of the signal goes to your effect line for the wet stereo signal at Out 1. Another copy goes to the send block, which creates that signal at the return block. Panning that signal to the right, you can send it to the FXL block to have it present at the right Output 2 jack going to your dry amp/cab.

 

[CudBucket]

Thanks guys. I haven't looked at that image yet but I wanted to post this first. I've been reading the Bakerman's solution as well as the manual and I think I at least am starting to get it.

It seems I could do the 4CM with separate preamp and poweramp as described in the manual. I assume that diagram has the user using Out2 L and In2 L to place the preamp in the Axe's loop. Correct? That would basically handle all the wet signal. For dry, I can use Out2 R to my VHT power amp and dry cab.

What I then need to program are: 1) Presets for the Egnater: Where there are no amp or cab sims, just effects and 2) Presets for the Axe Fx amp sims (again no cab sims) where I exclude the loop so the Egnater is not part of the signal. These presets will have to use panning, the FXL, etc. to make sure the signal is routed properly to accomplish 1 and 2. Am I in the ball park? If so, I think I need to learn how to use the FXL, panning, send/return.

What I don't understand from the bakerman's solution is why the Egnater would have to return to the opposite side that fed it.

Thanks for all the help!

Dave

 

[Bakerman]

It sounds like you understand, and a short time with the Axe should clear up anything that's hard to get from the manual/forum alone. Running it in stereo with no M4 or center dry rig connected might be a good way to become familiar with settings before using FXL and send/return blocks.

The reason for returning to the opposite side of what fed the M4 is that you need the signal to get to that side somehow so it can leave the remaining Out 2 jack to your dry amp. You could do that with a Vol/Filter block somewhere along the line instead, but if that ever got bypassed you'd have a feedback loop (the left signal is hitting the FXL block and running out of Out 2 L through your M4 again).

Slight correction/addition: In the first post I mentioned still using a vol/filter block panned right in case the FXL got bypassed. (Left signal would be passing through FXL block and not having the L-M4-R thing happening, hitting send/return blocks and reaching FXL again... feedback loop.) You can accomplish the same thing without an extra block just by setting the RTN block's balance all the way to the right.

 

[CudBucket]

The reason for returning to the opposite side of what fed the M4 is that you need the signal to get to that side somehow so it can leave the remaining Out 2 jack to your dry amp. You could do that with a Vol/Filter block somewhere along the line instead, but if that ever got bypassed you'd have a feedback loop (the left signal is hitting the FXL block and running out of Out 2 L through your M4 again).

Well, the M4 has two outputs can't I just run one to In2 L and one to In2 R?

 

[CudBucket]

The reason for returning to the opposite side of what fed the M4 is that you need the signal to get to that side somehow so it can leave the remaining Out 2 jack to your dry amp. You could do that with a Vol/Filter block somewhere along the line instead, but if that ever got bypassed you'd have a feedback loop (the left signal is hitting the FXL block and running out of Out 2 L through your M4 again).

Well, the M4 has two outputs can't I just run one to In2 L and one to In2 R?

Ignore my last post. I see from your diagram that I don't need to do that.

Thanks.

Dave

 

[CudBucket]

Here's my wiring diagram. When I've put together a model preset for both the M4 w/ effects and just the Axe w/ no M4, I'll post a pic for other people to reference.

 

[CudBucket]

The bakerman solution for routing an Axe Fx delay to the wet amp/cabs with no Axe Fx dry signal. The dry signal is provided by the other preamp only.

 

[Bakerman]

There shouldn't be a shunt between the return & send blocks, and you do need to either have the M4 output going to In 2 R or use a volume block to pan the left signal to the right between the return & effect loop blocks.

 

[CudBucket]

There shouldn't be a shunt between the return & send blocks, and you do need to either have the M4 output going to In 2 R or use a volume block to pan the left signal to the right between the return & effect loop blocks.

Points taken. I didn't mean for it to look like a shunt. I'll fix my diagram.

In the case of the Egnater M4, it has 2 outputs. I can run one to Input2 L and one to Input2 R and then have each panned to their own sides. That would work right?

 

[CudBucket]

But wait a minute...

Since the M4 has 2 outputs and I can send one to In2 L and one to In2 R, doesn't that mean I don't need the Send and Return blocks at all?

 

[CudBucket]

There shouldn't be a shunt between the return & send blocks, and you do need to either have the M4 output going to In 2 R or use a volume block to pan the left signal to the right between the return & effect loop blocks.

Then again, why do I need a Volume block to pan the signal to the right? Can't I just do that from the return block?

 

[Bakerman]

In the case of the Egnater M4, it has 2 outputs. I can run one to Input2 L and one to Input2 R and then have each panned to their own sides. That would work right?

It would, and that's one way to get the signal centered for your W rigs. Otherwise you'd have to use a vol/filter block to pan the one incoming signal to center. (Be sure to set the return block's balance fully right so you don't get a feedback loop with L signal being sent to the M4 again.)

Since the M4 has 2 outputs and I can send one to In2 L and one to In2 R, doesn't that mean I don't need the Send and Return blocks at all?

The send & return blocks are necessary to get signal at Out2 R, because to run WDW you have to get the FXL block's output back to an earlier point in the routing so it can be sent to FXL again and leave Out 2 R.

Then again, why do I need a Volume block to pan the signal to the right? Can't I just do that from the return block?

As long as you have something running into In 2 R, you can set the return block balance to right. It doesn't have a pan control to move incoming signals like vol/filter blocks, so if you had a signal at In 2 L only, setting return balance right would simply mute the left channel.

 

[CudBucket]

Thanks for the help!

So, in Fractal's 4 cable method diagram, when they have the preamp in the Axe's loop, they don't specify which sides of In2 and Out2 to use. I assumed of course, it would be In2 L and Out2 L. Wouldn't that create the same feedback loop? I'm talking about a simple stereo rig in that case.

Dave

 

[Bakerman]

It looks like javajunkie answered that in the other thread; the send & return blocks are what make a feedback loop possible with certain settings.

When posting yesterday I forgot there's an In 2 select in the I/O menu. If you set it to "left only" and run the M4 to In 2 L it will copy that signal to the right channel, so there's no reason to run 2 cables with the same signal to both In 2 jacks.

 

[CudBucket]

Here's the whole rig. I'm putting my Boss DD-20 between the Axe and wet amp. I'll put each side of it into a separate loop in the GCX so I can turn either side off if I want.