REVIEW: Red Sound MF.10 FRFR versus Matrix GT1000FX with real guitar cab

[Dave Merrill]

The point to me is having something that sounds and feels like an amp, solely for myself as a musician.

I was not looking for something PA-like, I don’t really care about al those terms like FRFR and ‘miced up sound’. Just want a good sound & feel for myself and let the FOH guys take care of the PA (miced up) sound.

If I may ask: what is (for a guitarist) the point of having a PA speaker in an amp form?

The Axe can simulate a wide variety of amps, but also a variety of speaker cabs.
To take advantage of the those simulated cabs (IRs), you want as neutral sounding a playback system as possible.
If you don't care about that, just want one (or a few) particular cabs you know you like, then get those actual physical cab(s), done.

 

[JanHaakma]

The Axe can simulate a wide variety of amps, but also a variety of speaker cabs.
To take advantage of the those simulated cabs (IRs), you want as neutral sounding a playback system as possible.
If you don't care about that, just want one (or a few) particular cabs you know you like, then get those actual physical cab(s), done.

Yes ok, I get that. And for the FOH sound this thing with different cab models is -of course- great. But.

I just really don’t see the advantage of having different cab models in your backline (with FRFR) when it just sounds and feels not as good as one real guitar cab.

Is the advantage then just the mental ‘idea’ of having more than one cabinet behind you? You sacrifice sound and feel for the idea of having a plethora of cabinets?

 

[Dave Merrill]

Yes ok, I get that. And for the FOH sound this thing with different cab models is -of course- great. But.

I just really don’t see the advantage of having different cab models in your backline (with FRFR) when it just sounds and feels not as good as one real guitar cab.

Is the advantage then just the mental ‘idea’ of having more than one cabinet behind you? You sacrifice sound and feel for the idea of having a plethora of cabinets?

That's one way to look at it, but the same could be said for modelers in general.

If you have or know of an amp/cab combo you love, just get that, and maybe a pedalboard, maybe an attenuator of some kind if it's louder than you want to be sometimes. Why use a simulation when you can have the real thing?

Some reasons are flexibility, consistency, quick tone changes, simple setup, low maintenance.

But the big one for me is if I feel like exploring for new tones, there are hundreds a couple of knob twists away. I don't have to go to a store and hope they have something interesting, then pay for it, haul it, and maintain it.

 

[unix-guy]

Yes ok, I get that. And for the FOH sound this thing with different cab models is -of course- great. But.

I just really don’t see the advantage of having different cab models in your backline (with FRFR) when it just sounds and feels not as good as one real guitar cab.

Is the advantage then just the mental ‘idea’ of having more than one cabinet behind you? You sacrifice sound and feel for the idea of having a plethora of cabinets?

If you want a traditional backline then just use one. There is no substitute. Nothing you play an IR into is going to sound like that because that's not how IRs work.

For me, I want to hear what the audience is hearing (or rather, I want them to hear what I am hearing).

The tones I've chased my entire life (as well as most guitarists) are recordings, not the sound of a guitar amp and cab in the room. That means I'm hearing the amp and speakers plus mic(s), mic preamp maybe the tape saturation, etc.

Some people get their heads around this concept and everything changes. Others just want something like they are used to. Either way is fine.

And for me, I put wedges in front of me (when not using IEMs). I don't have any need for a backline.

 

[Sashman]

This sums it up for me. I've got several hundred gigs under my belt with a traditional backline, and from the performers perspective it can sound gloriously amazing. It can also be somewhat inconsistent from night to night and venue to venue, but over all it is still a great experience.

If this is the case why did I ditch the traditional Bogner backline to replace it with the AXE III? Simple. We always play through killer PA rigs. Due to the size of the venues and the nature of the events stage sound is confined to the stage and the audience mostly hears the PA. While my mic'd up Bogner rig sounded great to me on stage, when I would walk out to FOH with my wireless it was consistently less than flattering. I would spend a fair bit of time with our FOH tech working on mic placement, etc to get a FOH sound I was happy with.

Enter the AXE III. When I bought the Fractal I figured there was a 50/50 chance I would be satisfied with the direct tone. I am happy to report that I've been running direct for the past year and thrilled with the results.

Our main PA uses Yamaha DSR12 stage monitors for those who aren't on ears. I used one in my studio to dial some patches in on the Axe III. I don't chase song specific tones in our band. I use a fender influenced clean, edge of break up AC-30, vintage plexi and a modded marshall tone. I was also careful to chose ir's that play well with each other when switching patches.

The real eye opener for me was us playing a larger venue. We got in early and I had plenty of time to setup my traditional rig, mic it up and dial it in at FOH. I also setup the Axe with my patches dialed. The A/B between the two was surprising. Not only did the Axe hang with the real amp, every patched sounded great. Currently on stage I am monitoring with EV PXM 12's and honestly, I do miss my Bogner a bit when I'm not on IEMs. When on ears, it's no contest the direct sound is better. If I can push my stage volume a little the EV's narrow that gap a little. Overall I'm super stoked about the Axe and running direct.

The right solution is different for everyone. If the OP is looking for a backline solution for jamming with some buddies and smaller club gigs with questionable PA systems, a traditional cab will work just dandy. Probably better than FRFR. For recording and larger gigs you can't beat direct.

This, I can’t count how many gigs and how many hours etc. I have spend in studios as a payed musician.
It just seems that an FRFR solution isn’t what the OP is searching for.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Have you tried any other FRFR speakers? It might be you just don’t like the Redsounds

 

[JanHaakma]

This sums it up for me. I've got several hundred gigs under my belt with a traditional backline, and from the performers perspective it can sound gloriously amazing. It can also be somewhat inconsistent from night to night and venue to venue, but over all it is still a great experience.

If this is the case why did I ditch the traditional Bogner backline to replace it with the AXE III? Simple. We always play through killer PA rigs. Due to the size of the venues and the nature of the events stage sound is confined to the stage and the audience mostly hears the PA. While my mic'd up Bogner rig sounded great to me on stage, when I would walk out to FOH with my wireless it was consistently less than flattering. I would spend a fair bit of time with our FOH tech working on mic placement, etc to get a FOH sound I was happy with.

Enter the AXE III. When I bought the Fractal I figured there was a 50/50 chance I would be satisfied with the direct tone. I am happy to report that I've been running direct for the past year and thrilled with the results.

Our main PA uses Yamaha DSR12 stage monitors for those who aren't on ears. I used one in my studio to dial some patches in on the Axe III. I don't chase song specific tones in our band. I use a fender influenced clean, edge of break up AC-30, vintage plexi and a modded marshall tone. I was also careful to chose ir's that play well with each other when switching patches.

The real eye opener for me was us playing a larger venue. We got in early and I had plenty of time to setup my traditional rig, mic it up and dial it in at FOH. I also setup the Axe with my patches dialed. The A/B between the two was surprising. Not only did the Axe hang with the real amp, every patched sounded great. Currently on stage I am monitoring with EV PXM 12's and honestly, I do miss my Bogner a bit when I'm not on IEMs. When on ears, it's no contest the direct sound is better. If I can push my stage volume a little the EV's narrow that gap a little. Overall I'm super stoked about the Axe and running direct.

The right solution is different for everyone. If the OP is looking for a backline solution for jamming with some buddies and smaller club gigs with questionable PA systems, a traditional cab will work just dandy. Probably better than FRFR. For recording and larger gigs you can't beat direct.

This, I can’t count how many gigs and how many hours etc. I have spend in studios as a payed musician.
It just seems that an FRFR solution isn’t what the OP is searching for.

I agree with both of you and you agree with me: FRFR is just not going to sound and feel as good as a real guitar cabinet with a decent power amp.

I also do large PA’s (with in ear monitoring) most of time. But the point I was making is that these Red Sounds just don’t compete with what they say: the real ‘amp in a room experience’.

I happen to not really care too much about the FOH sound: I send a great direct out sound out of my Axe FX 3 which goes into FOH and my in-ears. Great, great, great sound and love the versatility.

And I don’t use backline when playing in-ear. But when I do use backline, I like it to sound and feel amp like. And FRFR doesn’t. So I -for my needs- don’t see the point of FRFR speakers for guitarists (when using a PA).

 

[Sashman]

I agree with both of you and you agree with me: FRFR is just not going to sound and feel as good as a real guitar cabinet with a decent power amp.

I also do large PA’s (with in ear monitoring) most of time. But the point I was making is that these Red Sounds just don’t compete with what they say: the real ‘amp in a room experience’.

I happen to not really care too much about the FOH sound: I send a great direct out sound out of my Axe FX 3 which goes into FOH and my in-ears. Great, great, great sound and love the versatility.

And I don’t use backline when playing in-ear. But when I do use backline, I like it to sound and feel amp like. And FRFR doesn’t. So I -for my needs- don’t see the point of FRFR speakers for guitarists (when using a PA).

This is why I always say, that there is no perfect or the best FRFR etc. speaker.
It’s always personal taste and when I think that Speaker X is the best solution for me, doesn’t mean that‘s the best solution for everyone.

If you are liking your Hook Cabinet, then this is the right solution for you.
The best solution is the one that works best for you.
Have fun with your Axe and the cab and rock the shit out of it \m/

 

[Rekster]

Everyone has their own experiences and opinions on this. I've also struggled with FRFR solutions. Studio monitors sound absolutely amazing and for recording or low volume sessions it's the absolute best choice. But when jamming using FRFR speaker wedges at louder volumes it just sounds boxy unless I tweak my presets and add a GEQ etc.. Don't get me wrong, it can sound good but I don't have the time to tweak all my presets when I just want to jam. What I found works best for me is to stick to a real guitar cab when I want to rock out or jam at louder volumes. I've tried the 4CM through a tube amp (with both cab and power amp modeling off) and it works very well. Even better, by using a Matrix GT1000FX through a Mesa 2x12 vertical cab (and leaving power amp modeling ON) the differences in amp tones pop out even more. And it sounds like real guitar amp, not a mic'ed signal being amplified to louder volumes. I might not have as much versatility but it sounds good to me, and that's all that matters. Now I just want a second Mesa 2x12 cab.

 

[Sashman]

Everyone has their own experiences and opinions on this. I've also struggled with FRFR solutions. Studio monitors sound absolutely amazing and for recording or low volume sessions it's the absolute best choice. But when jamming using FRFR speaker wedges at louder volumes it just sounds boxy unless I tweak my presets and add a GEQ etc.. Don't get me wrong, it can sound good but I don't have the time to tweak all my presets when I just want to jam. What I found works best for me is to stick to a real guitar cab when I want to rock out or jam at louder volumes. I've tried the 4CM through a tube amp (with both cab and power amp modeling off) and it works very well. Even better, by using a Matrix GT1000FX through a Mesa 2x12 vertical cab (and leaving power amp modeling ON) the differences in amp tones pop out even more. And it sounds like real guitar amp, not a mic'ed signal being amplified to louder volumes. I might not have as much versatility but it sounds good to me, and that's all that matters. Now I just want a second Mesa 2x12 cab.

Yeah, everyone has to go their own route.
For me, I tried the Axe with a Matrix and a Mesa 4x12 as well and I was not impressed at all. The whole System does sound very limited.
I have never found that my FRFR do sound boxy etc. when I do use the right IR.
But there is a solution for everyone.

 

[Rekster]

Yeah, everyone has to go their own route.
For me, I tried the Axe with a Matrix and a Mesa 4x12 as well and I was not impressed at all. The whole System does sound very limited.
I have never found that my FRFR do sound boxy etc. when I do use the right IR.
But there is a solution for everyone.

Just curious, when was the last time you tried it? The only reason I ask is I tried out a real cab a year or two ago (with the Matrix GT1000FX) and was not impressed as well. But I revisited the real cab option a week ago and was blown away and have been playing every day since with the same results. I don't know if it's just me, or if Cygnus did something magical along the way.. I also have found ever since Cygnus I don't always have to fiddle around with amp settings to get a great tone. Often the defaults for an amp just sound amazing as is. Such a great product.

 

[Sashman]

Just curious, when was the last time you tried it? The only reason I ask is I tried out a real cab a year or two ago (with the Matrix GT1000FX) and was not impressed as well. But I revisited the real cab option a week ago and was blown away and have been playing every day since with the same results. I don't know if it's just me, or if Cygnus did something magical along the way.. I also have found ever since Cygnus I don't always have to fiddle around with amp settings to get a great tone. Often the defaults for an amp just sound amazing as is. Such a great product.

That I think all depends on which sound you want to reach.
I tested several Cabs 2x12 4x12 and around 30 different FRFR Cabs a year ago.
Of course the USA MK IV sounds glorious through a Mesa 4x12 but it’s more like a one trick pony.
I don’t want to miss all the different options that you have with a FRFR.

 

[Rekster]

That I think all depends on which sound you want to reach.
I tested several Cabs 2x12 4x12 and around 30 different FRFR Cabs a year ago.
Of course the USA MK IV sounds glorious through a Mesa 4x12 but it’s more like a one trick pony.
I don’t want to miss all the different options that you have with a FRFR

Absolutely!

For jamming, I'm more of a Mesa/Marshall/Friedman guy so of course a couple V30s in a Mesa cab are going to work very well for me. I have to say though, I've played some Fender tones through the cab and they sound quite good as well.

And I do have all the other different options as well when I want them - through my studio monitors! Best of both worlds.

In any case, it's all subjective in the end. There is no right or wrong and I always find it interesting to hear what works well for others.

Cheers.

 

[Sashman]

Yeah you are absolutely right. I love Mesa cabs and I had a Mesa, a Friedman and a Bogner Cab.
I would choose the Mesa Cab when playing only Metal etc. but the Bogner cab is the most versatile of these three.
Cheers mate \m/

 

[Rock Chalk]

Though not practical for everyone, especially when gigging, the best sounding setup is to have both. A power amp + cab along with a pair of nice frfr speakers just f#$&n rocks! Best of both worlds! YMMV

 

[marsonic]

I agree with both of you and you agree with me: FRFR is just not going to sound and feel as good as a real guitar cabinet with a decent power amp.

I also do large PA’s (with in ear monitoring) most of time. But the point I was making is that these Red Sounds just don’t compete with what they say: the real ‘amp in a room experience’.

I happen to not really care too much about the FOH sound: I send a great direct out sound out of my Axe FX 3 which goes into FOH and my in-ears. Great, great, great sound and love the versatility.

And I don’t use backline when playing in-ear. But when I do use backline, I like it to sound and feel amp like. And FRFR doesn’t. So I -for my needs- don’t see the point of FRFR speakers for guitarists (when using a PA).

I actually don't quite understand this....and I'm not criticizing...I'm actually curious why that is.

You're apparently happy with IEMs and no stage sound, which means that you're happy either without all of the 'moving air'/volume effects (e.g., harmonic feedback to whatever degree it happens) and are happy with the virtual power amp/cab interactions (not talking IRs; the things in the Amp block like impedance curves, speaker drive/compression, gain enhancer/feedback dynamics, etc.).

But, as soon as you're using stage sound, you're not happy with those things anymore and seem to want some degree of them doubled-up (unless you're changing some of the deep editing things between IEMs and backline). That seems odd.

Personally, I'm really liking FRFR-style monitoring and virtual versions of all those interactions a LOT. But, for me, it's not really a choice between virtual everything and keeping things like volume/moving-air effects, power amp/cab effects, etc.. I don't enjoy playing that loud, and I never really have. So, it's a choice between virtual everything or apparently not having some of them.

IDK...maybe having all those interactions stay virtual and just using a cab at (relatively) low volume would still be better. But, it's more of a PITA to try out.

Or, I guess it could be that you've just never tried an FRFR you like. There are a lot of really bad-sounding monitors (studio or stage) out there. In fact, most of the ones I've tried sound horrible. There was a really long time when every "small" band or DJ I saw running their own sound had either JBL Eons or Mackie Thumps, often without subwoofers....and I don't think I've ever heard those speakers sound even remotely good.

 

[JanHaakma]

I actually don't quite understand this....and I'm not criticizing...I'm actually curious why that is.

You're apparently happy with IEMs and no stage sound, which means that you're happy either without all of the 'moving air'/volume effects (e.g., harmonic feedback to whatever degree it happens) and are happy with the virtual power amp/cab interactions (not talking IRs; the things in the Amp block like impedance curves, speaker drive/compression, gain enhancer/feedback dynamics, etc.).

But, as soon as you're using stage sound, you're not happy with those things anymore and seem to want some degree of them doubled-up (unless you're changing some of the deep editing things between IEMs and backline). That seems odd.

Personally, I'm really liking FRFR-style monitoring and virtual versions of all those interactions a LOT. But, for me, it's not really a choice between virtual everything and keeping things like volume/moving-air effects, power amp/cab effects, etc.. I don't enjoy playing that loud, and I never really have. So, it's a choice between virtual everything or apparently not having some of them.

IDK...maybe having all those interactions stay virtual and just using a cab at (relatively) low volume would still be better. But, it's more of a PITA to try out.

Or, I guess it could be that you've just never tried an FRFR you like. There are a lot of really bad-sounding monitors (studio or stage) out there. In fact, most of the ones I've tried sound horrible. There was a really long time when every "small" band or DJ I saw running their own sound had either JBL Eons or Mackie Thumps, often without subwoofers....and I don't think I've ever heard those speakers sound even remotely good.

It’s actually quite simple: I don’t always use a ‘conventional’ guitar backline. When we play in-ears -which is often-, I don’t need/use a backline.

But when I do use a backline, I like a real guitar cab with power amp WAY more than the FRFR options I tried (Red Sound, CLR and DXR10, all in stereo). I don’t see the point of having FRFR as a ‘conventional’ guitar backline.