Wish Resonant frequencies embedded into IR's

Discussion in 'Axe-Fx II Wish List' started by FreeMind, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. FreeMind

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    Hello.
    Here's the thing: One of the less pleasant quirks of the axe FX and it's modelling accuracy is that you have to set the speaker resonant frequencies manually. The speaker settings are very important in order to get the "Real" sound and most users miss that. In most cases, the result is not authentic/physically accurate as users usually end up using the default settings, or in rare cases, more experienced users set these by ear. Most of us don't own the cabs in the IR list, nor do we have the means to measure the real cabs we have, so we see these "It's not like the real thing" comments.

    My idea is that IR's files could also contain resonant frequency settings, so when you load them in, the speaker page also updates to the right settings. This could be optional, of course.
    When switching Amp models, the speaker page settings could stay authentic to the cab, and we wouldn't have to set these manually every time.

    When releasing new cab packs, the developer should also measure the cab resonant frequencies and embed them to the IR files.
     
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  2. Pwrmac7600

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    IMO even if the IR manufacturers would just list the resonant freq in the notes would be good.
    The problem I see with embedding it is, most manufacturers are making IR's generically for multiple platforms, not just the Axe FX.
     
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  3. FreeMind

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    Listing them would be ok, but the user would still have to put them in manually, which is kind of a drag.
    Also, many of IR providers don't just include .wav files, they also add axe fx specific files... There wouldn't be a law, that they must put the info in the axe fx files. They simply would, if they wanted to make a good product...
    With fas expected level of quality, I expect no Fas cab packs to be released without proper measuring.
     
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  4. Tahoebrian5

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    I would be happy to just have a list provided when you buy a cab pack. It's a simpler solution to implement and if you really care to pay attention it's not too hard to input. Yes I agree it would be sweet to have your suggested fix btw
     
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  5. bradlake

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    I must admit to being one of those who have not considered this aspect at all to date...Is there any sources of reference for this? Or must one tune it in by ear per preset?
     
  6. deleted

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    Isn't that only important when playing with a real cab?
     
  7. unix-guy

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    I think that depends on whether you care about the accuracy of the IR.

    The setting definitely influences the bass response of the amp model, and the default values are wide ranging.
     
  8. dr bonkers

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    The main problem is a lot of manufacturers don't even list such specs and do not send them to you even when you ask politely.
     
  9. unix-guy

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    I think the wish obviously requires the IR creators to participate.

    The IR creation process could probably (making a large WAG here) include a determination of the resonant frequency.
     
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  10. steadystate

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    Use your ears and adjust to taste. Concerning IRs, for me, ears are all that matter. Many users match an amp model to an IR of the type of speaker/cab that would be associated with that amp in the real world, perhaps without considering other speakers/cabs that wouldn't "make sense". Authenticity is the goal. They use the same approach you mention for resonance.

    My view; I don't even look at the name of an IR before I audition it. Too many variables exist to ensure even a general trend for an "authentic" IR to be the best for my purpose with a specific amp model. The mic used, the mic position, the skill of the IR creator, the mic position, the tastes of the IR creator, the mic position, etc. all make more of a difference (to my ears) than the speaker/cab make/model, let alone the resonance frequency. Did I mention mic position?

    I agree having the data would be nice (I'm all for it). But I would still vary the resonance to find the best sounding result. And considering the number of IRs out there, I think you have as much chance as cataloging the weight of every grain of sand in California.
     
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  11. #11 zenaxe, Apr 21, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    zenaxe

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    Lots of people want as accurate a starting point as possible. This is what Fractal is all about for the most part. They go to the trouble to measure and encode individual pot tapers and component values on specific physical amp specimens so this request is hardly a leap. Its cool that you personally don't care but the request is a good one, IMHO. And the quest for accuracy down to perfection is a great goal for the manufacturer even if it crosses your personal threshold for ROI.

    That said, unfortunately, lots of problems, many have touched on it here...

    1. Not understood and difficult to measure for the person delivering the IR. No standard for how to measure or what extra data is needed. Is this for AxeFx only? Lots of IR guys are serving more than AFX users.
    2. The defacto 'standard' format for delivering IRs is WAV which is not a cab IR format but an audio file format. It has no niceties for IR publishing: LF Resonance, LF Q, HF values, EQ curve to correct for power amp response, etc. All of this metadata cannot be contained in a 'standard' wav file.

    Would love to see Fractal take the lead on this as they are a leader in this technology. This feedback/disjoint between the virtual cab and power amp is one of the biggest weaknesses of the axe (from an accuracy standpoint; being able to adjust it/change it is a feature ;) ). There are really just three serious sources of issues I can think of, we are sooo accurate these days it is just awesome; but continued ideas/improvements are always worth thinking about and shooting for...

    Part of the prevalence of IRs is not only that they are so GOOD but also that they are also so EASY to produce.
     
  12. unix-guy

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    My argument would be that the IR creator, who I assume has a really good ear, adjusted the mic position, mix, etc based on what they heard. And the resonant frequency would be an important component of that.

    Obviously, I can just listen and find something that works, but I also want to hear it as the IR creator intended it to be heard.
     
  13. #13 steadystate, Apr 21, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    steadystate

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    I agree. Having the data is better than not having the data. My problem is sorting through many hundreds of IRs trying to find one I like, before resonance is even considered.

    The finer point I was getting at is that the mic used and its position swamp the resonance value, IMOHO. And even with the authentic value automatically set, I'd still adjust it to see if default actually sounds best.

    This wish would need the cooperation of lots of people. Or, someone could initiate a spreadsheet with values for various speakers.
     
  14. REDD

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    A cabs resonance is fixed right? Mic placement and mic type would not affect that right? Wrong? I think it would be great to have it for each cab if possible.
     
  15. steadystate

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    Yes, it is fixed. My point is that IRs of the same speaker will sound radically different depending on mic placement; so different that the resonance value is a small part of the equation by comparison, at least for me. But again, I think it's a good wish.

    I think our best bet here is to collectively assemble a list of resonance values. If anyone has the speakers, and tools and knowledge to measure them, please have at it.
     
  16. REDD

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    I think it's a good wish as well. Maybe this thread can make it happen. Would be cool.
     
  17. axifist

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    I'm all +1 on this, but this wish isn't new at all! Btw, there ARE IR creators who provide such data. On the german forum we had a lot of discussion about this topic years ago and the two IR creators based in Germany + Austria, cabir.eu and valhallir.at, provide this information. Valhallir.at is a bit behind on certain cabs, but the information will be provided soon.

    Like others have said, if you only use IRs this isn't the most important thing, but definitely nice to have. If you use real cabs, it's important to know the value, because it really makes a big difference. But who knows this value for his specific cab? Most people can only guess.
     
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  18. unix-guy

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    Keep in mind the resonant frequency is for the cab (including speaker), not the speaker itself. The manufacturers often list the resonant frequency for the speaker, but that changes when mounted in a cabinet.
     
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  19. Tahoebrian5

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    I'm a bit confused on this now that I overthunk it. Wouldn't the resonant freq's be Baked into the IR? And if so should we be zero'ing the resonant controls? This can't be right but if someone can shed some light on it it would help my brain.
     
  20. steadystate

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    This also makes the wish that much harder to implement.
     

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