Reset Mesa II C+ preset, still problematic

Dimitri Carrer

Dimitri Carrer

Member
Hi Yek,
I'm posting here as suggested by the other moderators.

The problem persists.
Here's the patch + the sound (on the pause I raise the mids and the effect is the same).
Master volume at 5 now, so ppl who doesn't take the bother to listen should not be yelling at me :)

If you want I'll make the downgrade and I'll register you a sample... :)
 

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  • Mark II C+ Standard Cab+Reset.syx
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  • Shitty Mesa Bis.zip
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Yeah sounds weird - I haven't tried Mark II C+ - mainly Marshall and the USA Lead at bedroom level. USA Lead did sound OK.
 
As I was saying the Quantum FW 2.0 thread till 1.6 it was really good to me.. needed some tweaks here and there but I like it very much.
Now it's unusable :(
Tightness is gone, Mesa-iness is gone too... me sad :(
 
Moved to general discussion as this is not a preset request or offering per se.
 
Just a different approach ... did you ever try the FAS Modern III ? .. IMO it's great amp and a more than adequate Recto alternative, to the dedicated Mesa amp sims in the Axe.
 
Dimitri Carrer said:
Hi Yek,
I'm posting here as suggested by the other moderators.

The problem persists.
Here's the patch + the sound (on the pause I raise the mids and the effect is the same).
Master volume at 5 now, so ppl who doesn't take the bother to listen should not be yelling at me :)

If you want I'll make the downgrade and I'll register you a sample... :)
Click to expand...

Yes, this Preset sounds like ass (with my EMG-SA equipped Strat through Yamaha HS80Ms).

1. The IR you've chosen is boomy on the bottom and ice-picky on the top.
Try another IR.
At the very least, use the Hi and Low cuts in the Cab Block, probably with the -12dB Filter Slope option for a more noticeable effect.

2. Your Amp Block settings look to me like you've been tweaking with your eyes rather than your ears.
E.g. You're using all the "famous" V setting on the GEQ page and your Basic settings look like you took them out of a Mesa owner's manual.
But your specific GEQ settings make this sound worse rather than better.
And your Basic settings aren't helping either.

Your Amp Block sounds passable through my Matrix GT1600 and my EVM-12L loaded open back cab with Cab Block defeated, so the basic Amp Block settings aren't too bad.
Most of the problems are with the IR IMO.

You need to learn to start tweaking based off of knowledge of the real-world amps and cabs *but after that you need to use your ears*.

You've sucked all the mids out both in the GEQ and the Basic mid control.
Add some of that back.
BTW you have your GEQ set to post power amp.
In a real Mesa it would be pre-power amp, post preamp.

You've got the Input Gain (Basic page) up at 8.5.
This control has a Bright Cap attached to it and the higher you set it the more top end seeps into the distortion potentially making it brittle and edgy sounding.
8.5 might work on a real Mesa MK Series amp but it doesn't sound so good with this model.
Try lowering this parameter to 5.0 (the default) and if you don't have enough gain use the next control, Overdrive, to achieve it.
You can also boost the Input Trim control for even more gain w/o changing the treble content or the tone.

Most of the real world amps that have a master vol and that get most of their overdrive from the preamp default to a Master Level of 5.0 in the Axe sims.
Especially with the Mesa amps, I've always found this on the high side.
When I was playing real Mesa amps I never had to set my Master Vol any higher than 3 in order to get ear-splitting levels for both dirty and clean tones.
Try turning this parameter down in the Amp Block of your Preset.
Somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 usually sounds good to me.

It looks like this started out as a 3rd party Preset from yek.
Remember that he's using a different guitar than yours and that his monitoring system may be markedly different than yours.
IOW Never trust anyone else's Presets, especially the Factory Presets, to just miraculously translate perfectly to your guitar(s) and your system.
You will ALWAYS have to tweak.
 
Mark IIC+ Dialing Tips:

1. Model choice: Start with the Brt/Dp mode but after mastering the dialing-in process you may want to experiment with different modes.

2. For high gain sounds Pull Bright and Pull Shift are your friends so select the Mid knob and press Enter (Fat = Pull Shift) and then select the Treble knob and press Enter (= Pull Bright). Note that the Lead 2 modes in the Triaxis have Pull Bright and Pull Shift on by default and there's no way to turn them off. What does that tell you?

3. The Mark IIC+ has a logarithmic Mid pot. This is too drastic IMO and MB probably felt the same way as the later Mark amps had linear tapers. So crank the Mid control up (7-8 sounds good).

4. The tone stack is pre-distortion. That means it's shaping the tone prior to distortion. The classic recipe for any high gain amp is to reduce the bass before distortion. Therefore turn that Bass knob down (just like Mesa tells you).

5. I like to turn the Presence down just a touch (3-4) to smooth things out.

6. Find the sweet spot. Adjust the MV until you feel the power amp just start to compress. Then back off a touch. Boogies sound best with the power amp not distorting IMO because the power amp has too much negative feedback and if it distorts the clipping is harsh. FWIW the best "analog" tone I ever had was a Triaxis into a VHT power amp. I never liked the MB power amps, too cold and the clipping is too harsh. Maybe one day I'll make a model of that combo.

7. Now add the graphic EQ. Note that the sliders in the Axe-Fx are much more sensitive than the real amp. On the real amp they pretty much do nothing over the center half of the range. This is because they used the wrong taper pots (usually you would use an S-Taper but those are hard to find). So don't move the sliders too much or you'll rapidly get into Funkytown.

8. Finally, above all else, use your ears and not your eyes. These are notoriously difficult amps to dial in. If you use your eyes you'll end up with a mess.
 
FractalAudio said:
2. For high gain sounds Pull Bright and Pull Shift are your friends so select the Mid knob and press Enter (Fat = Pull Shift) and then select the Treble knob and press Enter (= Pull Bright). Note that the Lead 2 modes in the Triaxis have Pull Bright and Pull Shift on by default and there's no way to turn them off. What does that tell you?
Click to expand...

Does the specific Triaxis model in the Axe have these on by default, as well, and in consequence turning on "fat" would be "double fat"? Or did you model the Lead 2 the way, that "fat" and "bright" are off by default although there never was an option to turn these off in the Triaxis?

FractalAudio said:
7. Now add the graphic EQ. Note that the sliders in the Axe-Fx are much more sensitive than the real amp. On the real amp they pretty much do nothing over the center half of the range. This is because they used the wrong taper pots (usually you would use an S-Taper but those are hard to find). So don't move the sliders too much or you'll rapidly get into Funkytown.
Click to expand...

Is the max/min value of the EQ the same as on the Mark II and just everything in between more sensitive? Or is it in general just much more effective?
And don't forget to mention that you gotta put the EQ pre power amp (you should make it the default on the mark models)
 
Lilarcor said:
Does the specific Triaxis model in the Axe have these on by default, as well, and in consequence turning on "fat" would be "double fat"? Or did you model the Lead 2 the way, that "fat" and "bright" are off by default although there never was an option to turn these off in the Triaxis?



Is the max/min value of the EQ the same as on the Mark II and just everything in between more sensitive? Or is it in general just much more effective?
And don't forget to mention that you gotta put the EQ pre power amp (you should make it the default on the mark models)
Click to expand...

Engaging Fat would be double-fat. Bright switch is on by default in those models.

The min/max is roughly the same.
 
I can't help to notice that there are either users who are taking care about reading and considering few options and users who tend to watch numbers only and tend to be mean :)

Anyway, let's give it a try

joegold said:
Yes, this Preset sounds like ass (with my EMG-SA equipped Strat through Yamaha HS80Ms).

1. The IR you've chosen is boomy on the bottom and ice-picky on the top.
Try another IR.
At the very least, use the Hi and Low cuts in the Cab Block, probably with the -12dB Filter Slope option for a more noticeable effect.
Click to expand...

I've picked a cab for reference as Yek and the others suggested me in the forum. Just to have a reference sound.

2. Your Amp Block settings look to me like you've been tweaking with your eyes rather than your ears.
E.g. You're using all the "famous" V setting on the GEQ page and your Basic settings look like you took them out of a Mesa owner's manual.
But your specific GEQ settings make this sound worse rather than better.
And your Basic settings aren't helping either.

Your Amp Block sounds passable through my Matrix GT1600 and my EVM-12L loaded open back cab with Cab Block defeated, so the basic Amp Block settings aren't too bad.
Most of the problems are with the IR IMO.

You need to learn to start tweaking based off of knowledge of the real-world amps and cabs *but after that you need to use your ears*.
Click to expand...

Ok, I appreciate the honesty but this is mean :)
In Q FW 1.6 I had no issues with this preset, this same preset. I've started using the tips by Cliff on the Wiki then I've adjusted to my ears and to my equipement (Tannoy 502).
If you have Matrix, FRFR speakers and so on it's cool, I get what you say, but I don't have the chance to get your "Hearing point of view". Anyway by recording with that preset and even making a couple of recording for friends the preset was more than just ok.
Maybe in advanced mixed terrotory there's lot to adjust but overall I don't feel you need to use a jackhammer to explain your arguments sir :) Still I appreciate the informations and the help you're providing me.

You've sucked all the mids out both in the GEQ and the Basic mid control.
Add some of that back.
Click to expand...

That's the problem: with 2.8 I had more than enough mids, now by raising them I get that awful smearing effect, which I've done in the audio file. If you took a listen to it I clearly pause playing and add a lot of mids reproducing the effect.

BTW you have your GEQ set to post power amp.
In a real Mesa it would be pre-power amp, post preamp.

You've got the Input Gain (Basic page) up at 8.5.
This control has a Bright Cap attached to it and the higher you set it the more top end seeps into the distortion potentially making it brittle and edgy sounding.
8.5 might work on a real Mesa MK Series amp but it doesn't sound so good with this model.
Try lowering this parameter to 5.0 (the default) and if you don't have enough gain use the next control, Overdrive, to achieve it.
You can also boost the Input Trim control for even more gain w/o changing the treble content or the tone.

Most of the real world amps that have a master vol and that get most of their overdrive from the preamp default to a Master Level of 5.0 in the Axe sims.
Especially with the Mesa amps, I've always found this on the high side.
When I was playing real Mesa amps I never had to set my Master Vol any higher than 3 in order to get ear-splitting levels for both dirty and clean tones.
Try turning this parameter down in the Amp Block of your Preset.
Somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 usually sounds good to me.
Click to expand...

That's helpful but I got a different behaviour. Plus by trying the preset at 2.5 Master Volume, as Yek suggested on the other thread, the problem doesn't go away.
Still: few FW updates ago Cliff said clearly that now the amps should get some improved tone by using them at higher Master Volume, like in real life.
I don't own a Mesa but up to FW 1.6 I had the same feel/sound as a Mark IIC+ that a friend of mine has and let me try.
Now I simply reckognize that we are in IIC+ territory but sounds terribly wrong.

It looks like this started out as a 3rd party Preset from yek.
Remember that he's using a different guitar than yours and that his monitoring system may be markedly different than yours.
IOW Never trust anyone else's Presets, especially the Factory Presets, to just miraculously translate perfectly to your guitar(s) and your system.
You will ALWAYS have to tweak.
Click to expand...

That's correct: Axe FX is tremendously guitar sensitive. Plus I don't use any commercial pickup and this has allowed me to explore some other territories than the ones provided by the common brands.
Any way thanks, but I've tried already almost everything you said. I'll try to reconsider it but the problems it's the mid controls and I can't get a tight sound, so I'll probably won't use this model anymore if it's ok on the firmware side.
 
Thanks a lot.
Have you had a chance to hear my MP3 file?
When raising the mids up to 7/8 there's an awful smearing effect.
That's happening to me both by using Master Volume 10 or 1.5.
Tightness it's almost completely gone away. And please consider I'm using a Misha V30 mix D1 with E906 mic, in the preset I've used what the guys in the forum suggested, which has less bottom freq and, at least on my speakers, not so icy highs :)

FractalAudio said:
Mark IIC+ Dialing Tips:

1. Model choice: Start with the Brt/Dp mode but after mastering the dialing-in process you may want to experiment with different modes.

2. For high gain sounds Pull Bright and Pull Shift are your friends so select the Mid knob and press Enter (Fat = Pull Shift) and then select the Treble knob and press Enter (= Pull Bright). Note that the Lead 2 modes in the Triaxis have Pull Bright and Pull Shift on by default and there's no way to turn them off. What does that tell you?

3. The Mark IIC+ has a logarithmic Mid pot. This is too drastic IMO and MB probably felt the same way as the later Mark amps had linear tapers. So crank the Mid control up (7-8 sounds good).

4. The tone stack is pre-distortion. That means it's shaping the tone prior to distortion. The classic recipe for any high gain amp is to reduce the bass before distortion. Therefore turn that Bass knob down (just like Mesa tells you).

5. I like to turn the Presence down just a touch (3-4) to smooth things out.

6. Find the sweet spot. Adjust the MV until you feel the power amp just start to compress. Then back off a touch. Boogies sound best with the power amp not distorting IMO because the power amp has too much negative feedback and if it distorts the clipping is harsh. FWIW the best "analog" tone I ever had was a Triaxis into a VHT power amp. I never liked the MB power amps, too cold and the clipping is too harsh. Maybe one day I'll make a model of that combo.

7. Now add the graphic EQ. Note that the sliders in the Axe-Fx are much more sensitive than the real amp. On the real amp they pretty much do nothing over the center half of the range. This is because they used the wrong taper pots (usually you would use an S-Taper but those are hard to find). So don't move the sliders too much or you'll rapidly get into Funkytown.

8. Finally, above all else, use your ears and not your eyes. These are notoriously difficult amps to dial in. If you use your eyes you'll end up with a mess.
Click to expand...
 
Dimitri Carrer said:
I can't help to notice that there are either users who are taking care about reading and considering few options and users who tend to watch numbers only and tend to be mean :)

Anyway, let's give it a try



I've picked a cab for reference as Yek and the others suggested me in the forum. Just to have a reference sound.



Ok, I appreciate the honesty but this is mean :)
In Q FW 1.6 I had no issues with this preset, this same preset. I've started using the tips by Cliff on the Wiki then I've adjusted to my ears and to my equipement (Tannoy 502).
If you have Matrix, FRFR speakers and so on it's cool, I get what you say, but I don't have the chance to get your "Hearing point of view". Anyway by recording with that preset and even making a couple of recording for friends the preset was more than just ok.
Maybe in advanced mixed terrotory there's lot to adjust but overall I don't feel you need to use a jackhammer to explain your arguments sir :) Still I appreciate the informations and the help you're providing me.



That's the problem: with 2.8 I had more than enough mids, now by raising them I get that awful smearing effect, which I've done in the audio file. If you took a listen to it I clearly pause playing and add a lot of mids reproducing the effect.



That's helpful but I got a different behaviour. Plus by trying the preset at 2.5 Master Volume, as Yek suggested on the other thread, the problem doesn't go away.
Still: few FW updates ago Cliff said clearly that now the amps should get some improved tone by using them at higher Master Volume, like in real life.
I don't own a Mesa but up to FW 1.6 I had the same feel/sound as a Mark IIC+ that a friend of mine has and let me try.
Now I simply reckognize that we are in IIC+ territory but sounds terribly wrong.



That's correct: Axe FX is tremendously guitar sensitive. Plus I don't use any commercial pickup and this has allowed me to explore some other territories than the ones provided by the common brands.
Any way thanks, but I've tried already almost everything you said. I'll try to reconsider it but the problems it's the mid controls and I can't get a tight sound, so I'll probably won't use this model anymore if it's ok on the firmware side.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be mean.
I'm trying to help you.
I'm sorry that you see my comments as being mean but that perhaps says more about your own way of looking at things rather than mine.

Also...
My comments that you refer to above were about using your Preset through a Matrix power amp and a guitar cabinet (an EVM 12L loaded 1 X 12 open back cab) with Cab Block off, not through an FRFR cab.
The Preset sounds much better that way than it does through an FRFR system using your chosen IR.
My conclusion was therefore that the IR could be a lot better.
If you don't have any experience running the Axe into real guitar cabs you're missing out on a big part of your Axe education IMO.
You can learn a lot like that even if it's not your go-to method of monitoring.

I think that if you start out using the basic USA IIC+ model, as opposed to the other three IIC+ models that were modelled with various other Pull switches activated, and switch the Bright and the Fat Switches On you'll be in a better starting place w/o so much hyped treble and/or bass.
A less hyped-to-start-with IR is advisable too.

When your tones change drastically from one firmware to another you either have to do some more tweaking or roll back to the earlier firmware.
Don't expect things to translate seamlessly.
If that's too much of a drag, don't update the firmware.
 
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