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Red Wirez "Tone Recipe Formula" Sharing Thread

Joost Assink

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Interesting Alexander,
Do you have a general formula for adding these TC30s to the mix, when available? (what position/distance and mix percentage?)

yek said:
Scott, another one:

Did you ever try the Red Wirez TC30 IRs? Not the farfields but the close-mic'd ones.
They are included with some of the cabs (just 4 mic positions).
I'm running through some of them. These seem to have that punch of a real amp you're looking for / have obtained.
 

yek

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Joost Assink said:
Interesting Alexander,
Do you have a general formula for adding these TC30s to the mix, when available? (what position/distance and mix percentage?)
Joost,
There are just 4 IRs per cab, at one distance only.

I use CapEdge and I'm doing the same as with the "normal" mixes: Scott's recipes.
TC30 at 0.90 (or 0.45 each for two cabs), backcab 0.05 and Room L and R each 0.025.

Scott, did you see my question? ;-)
 

Scott Peterson

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yek said:
Joost Assink said:
Interesting Alexander,
Do you have a general formula for adding these TC30s to the mix, when available? (what position/distance and mix percentage?)
Joost,
There are just 4 IRs per cab, at one distance only.

I use CapEdge and I'm doing the same as with the "normal" mixes: Scott's recipes.
TC30 at 0.90 (or 0.45 each for two cabs), backcab 0.05 and Room L and R each 0.025.

Scott, did you see my question? ;-)
I did see it. I have not had time to try anything. I am interested to check it out.

In the past, I did try them at various lengths and really liked them... but when I used them live, I honestly 'disappeared' in the mix. Now, this was using Far Field IR's. Not these close mic'd ones.

I will be interested to see if using these is different, but I am on a hiatus for a bit from playing live for a few weeks.
 

randocaster

Inspired
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For classic Plexi type sounds, I can't come up with anything that replaces this. It's essentially Scott's old formula without the small amount of "back of cab". It was such a small amount, I can't hear it anyways, so I did it straight 50/50.

Marshall1960A-G12Ms-R121-CapEdge-2in.wav,0.5
Marshall1960A-G12Ms-SM57-CapEdge-2in.wav,0.5
 

Scott Peterson

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yek said:
Scott, another one:

Did you ever try the Red Wirez TC30 IRs? Not the farfields but the close-mic'd ones.
They are included with some of the cabs (just 4 mic positions).
I'm running through some of them. These seem to have that punch of a real amp you're looking for / have obtained.
Do you know offhand what cabs the TC30 (close) IR's are included with?
 

yek

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Scott Peterson said:
yek said:
Scott, another one:

Did you ever try the Red Wirez TC30 IRs? Not the farfields but the close-mic'd ones.
They are included with some of the cabs (just 4 mic positions).
I'm running through some of them. These seem to have that punch of a real amp you're looking for / have obtained.
Do you know offhand what cabs the TC30 (close) IR's are included with?
Of the cabs I own, they are included with:

5150-Sheffield1200s
BasketweaveG12H30s
BasketweaveG12Ls
BasketweaveG12M20s
BasketweaveG12M25s
BassmanP10Qs
ENGLProV30s
EVM12L
HiwattSE4123-Fanes
JC120-Roland12s
Marshall1960B-T75s
Matchless-G12H30
Matchless-G12H30M25
TwinD120s
TwinJensenC12N
UberkabT75s
UberkabT75V30
UberkabV30s
VoxAC30Silvers

So that's everything except the first batch.
Not the G12M, VoxBlue, OrangeV30, MesaV30 etc. .... :-(
 

Scott Peterson

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Thanks Alexander... just messing around, but indeed - very nice. You rock man.

Thanks for keeping this discussion going... really fun with the MixIR online.

Suggested change to my little base formula - change the 'back' to 12inch.

The rest stays the same and it's a very good, even, full, not hyped yet full of cut tone. Perhaps the best IR's I've heard yet. Now I'm dying to try these live! Arrg!
 

Morphosis

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yek said:
Scott Peterson said:
yek said:
So that's everything except the first batch.
Not the G12M, VoxBlue, OrangeV30, MesaV30 etc. .... :-(
Yek, did you talk about THESE ( pic attached the G12Ms - for example) TC30 ? They ARE also included in the "old first big box" RW made .... ?!?!?! Or did you talking about completely different story? I remember when RW included the farfields and later ALSO some nearfields of the TC30 in the first batch speakers ...

Am i missing something?
 

yek

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@Morph: the ones you list are farfield IRs. I'm talking about the close mic TC30 IRs, to be found in the Earthworks TC30 folder of each cab.

Okay, I had time tonight to test these TC30s. Using a backing tape, which works great to test tones.

They don't work on their own, IMO. They miss a lot of top end which takes away gain ... I have to work twice as hard ;) Couldn't compensate this by adding Presence or Treble.

Then I tried a dual or stereo cab approach. And I had success adding a TC30 at -15dB level. This adds a great solid, beefy bottom to the tone while keeping the overall tone of the SM57 IR intact. It looks like a great combination.
I'm going to use the RW mixer to create a Hires mono cab (I'm running mono), based on Scott's recipe with the addition of the TC30 at -15. I'll keep you posted.
 

Morphosis

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yek said:
@Morph: the ones you list are farfield IRs. I'm talking about the close mic TC30 IRs, to be found in the Earthworks TC30 folder of each cab.
@Yek, just to clearify: The folder named Earthquake TC30! But just on the 1960A G12M. And cap, capedge, cone, coneedge allways on 0inch ... is really the nearest position i can think of?! Right: All other cabs from the "old big box" have the folder "TC30-Ref-FarFields", but with the same TC30 positions as the "Earthworks TC30" folder of the 1960A cab.

To clearify: can you please post some names of the nearfield positions you`re talking about?

I am very interested in these mic-uncoloured IRs ...

Thanks
Markus
 

Scott Peterson

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Those are the ones. I bet he added them later on; they were not in the original IR zip file I have.

Cool!

Here are some kick-ass (from first blush) sounding mixes based on these IR's:

V30 Ref Mix
Uberkab-V30-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.45
Uberkab-V30-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-2in.wav,0.45
Uberkab-T75V30-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
Uberkab-T75V30-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
Uberkab-T75V30-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

Greenback 412 Ref Mix
BasketweaveG12M20s-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.45
BasketweaveG12M25s-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-2in.wav,0.45
BasketweaveG12M20s-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M20s-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BasketweaveG12M20s-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025
 

Morphosis

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Thanks Scott for clearify! Yes, they put them later in the package - so i recommend to load them totally new down to be sure that you guys get all out of the money :D

And thanks for sharing your recipes Scott! Learned a lot - you bring me to the rabit hole last year ;-)

Still experiment with these cab thing, particular because of the "to much bass & treble when fletcher munson comes to town" thing .... to many possibilities here: hi/low cut in the amp - PEQ Blocking - (Global) GEQ... or the perfect cabmix ... hmmmm .... how do you guys think about it? never have issues with to much(less lows or highs when using real Cabs ... just with IRs ... so it seems, the mix is wrong, right?
 

Axisman5150

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yek said:
I had success adding a TC30 at -15dB level. This adds a great solid, beefy bottom to the tone while keeping the overall tone of the SM57 IR intact. It looks like a great combination.
I'm going to use the RW mixer to create a Hires mono cab (I'm running mono), based on Scott's recipe with the addition of the TC30 at -15. I'll keep you posted.
Here's one I did based on Yek's approach:

BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-SM57mix

BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.15
BasketweaveG12M25s-SM57-CapEdge-2in.wav,0.85


Seamed to work very well, has depth and bite.
@ Scott, thanks for those mixes, I'll check them out. :)

and thank you too, Yek!
 

Morphosis

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Axisman5150 said:
Here's one I did based on Yek's approach:
Maybe i am wrong, but for -15db are not the same like 15% ?!?!?! :? ups, seems to be i am wrong ... and Axisman is right, but the tip is the Rewirez Calculator (when you`re sign in):
 

Scott Peterson

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Morphosis said:
Thanks Scott for clearify! Yes, they put them later in the package - so i recommend to load them totally new down to be sure that you guys get all out of the money :D

And thanks for sharing your recipes Scott! Learned a lot - you bring me to the rabit hole last year ;-)

Still experiment with these cab thing, particular because of the "to much bass & treble when fletcher munson comes to town" thing .... to many possibilities here: hi/low cut in the amp - PEQ Blocking - (Global) GEQ... or the perfect cabmix ... hmmmm .... how do you guys think about it? never have issues with to much(less lows or highs when using real Cabs ... just with IRs ... so it seems, the mix is wrong, right?
I've come to the - unscientific - conclusion that we hear cabs in 'space' with our ears in a room. What we are doing with an IR is 'hearing' that cab mic'd up in a room... without any room. That's not a natural way to hear things. Even with a reference mic. Everything is from a single point; that's not how we normally pick things up with our ears.

So the IR is a 'fixed point' that we are listening to; we don't usually hear that. We are not used to it. (*Engineers and guys that record/mix/do live sound are used to it). So a 'naked cab' sounds funny; even if it is a very accurate representation of a given cab. It's like hearing your cab from one single point, not with your two ears. The one spot it comes from is a microphone, which adds/subtracts/multiplies sonic 'color' to the cab. Even the reference mic is not a match for what we are used to for our ears.

So you have a single point spot, a microphone of various shades of color/character shaping/filtering the sound and you have essentially no room. Imagine hearing a cab in an anechoic chamber. That's a quality IR. Crappy ones even blur the edges more.

So I've tried to find ways to 'present' the cab, via a mixed IR, and add a mostly early reflections reverb at a low level to give the sense of 'room' withOUT a room.

To me, these mixes - and we have a huge jump on them with the experience from the past year mixing away; and the availability of quality professional level IR's - LeCab, Red Wire and OwnHammer - to work with.

I am really having fun today working with Alexander "Yek"'s idea here - and ripping away at volume, there is really something quality here that I've not heard before. It just feels 'natural' and dialing up the amps to work with these mixes - incorporating reference mics (hence my "Ref" names for these) is exciting at first blush.

In the past, I just used Far Field alone, I also them mixed far field with more tradition close mic'd options... but never incorporated a closed mic reference mic.

I need to hear these in context live to 'know'. They sound good, feel good and hold up well against my normal 'check' points.
 

Axisman5150

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Morphosis said:
Maybe i am wrong, but for -15db are not the same like 15% ?!?!?! :? ups, seems to be i am wrong ... and Axisman is right, but the tip is the Rewirez Calculator (when you`re sign in):
Morphosis, I like to use the calculator for entering multiple db values separated by commas (i.e. 0,-12,-18) to find their relative percentages.
So for that mix it was 0,-15=84.9%,15.1% and I rounded off the numbers to 0.85/0.15
 

Morphosis

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Axisman5150 said:
Morphosis said:
Maybe i am wrong, but for -15db are not the same like 15% ?!?!?! :? ups, seems to be i am wrong ... and Axisman is right, but the tip is the Rewirez Calculator (when you`re sign in):
Morphosis, I like to use the calculator for entering multiple db values separated by commas (i.e. 0,-12,-18) to find their relative percentages.
So for that mix it was 0,-15=84.9%,15.1% and I rounded off the numbers to 0.85/0.15
Axisman@ Excuse me ... i was wrong - you right .... :oops: :oops: :oops:
 

Morphosis

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Scott Peterson said:
Morphosis said:
Thanks Scott for clearify! Yes, they put them later in the package - so i recommend to load them totally new down to be sure that you guys get all out of the money :D

And thanks for sharing your recipes Scott! Learned a lot - you bring me to the rabit hole last year ;-)

Still experiment with these cab thing, particular because of the "to much bass & treble when fletcher munson comes to town" thing .... to many possibilities here: hi/low cut in the amp - PEQ Blocking - (Global) GEQ... or the perfect cabmix ... hmmmm .... how do you guys think about it? never have issues with to much(less lows or highs when using real Cabs ... just with IRs ... so it seems, the mix is wrong, right?
I've come to the - unscientific - conclusion that we hear cabs in 'space' with our ears in a room. What we are doing with an IR is 'hearing' that cab mic'd up in a room... without any room. That's not a natural way to hear things. Even with a reference mic. Everything is from a single point; that's not how we normally pick things up with our ears.

So the IR is a 'fixed point' that we are listening to; we don't usually hear that. We are not used to it. (*Engineers and guys that record/mix/do live sound are used to it). So a 'naked cab' sounds funny; even if it is a very accurate representation of a given cab. It's like hearing your cab from one single point, not with your two ears. The one spot it comes from is a microphone, which adds/subtracts/multiplies sonic 'color' to the cab. Even the reference mic is not a match for what we are used to for our ears.

So you have a single point spot, a microphone of various shades of color/character shaping/filtering the sound and you have essentially no room. Imagine hearing a cab in an anechoic chamber. That's a quality IR. Crappy ones even blur the edges more.

So I've tried to find ways to 'present' the cab, via a mixed IR, and add a mostly early reflections reverb at a low level to give the sense of 'room' withOUT a room.

To me, these mixes - and we have a huge jump on them with the experience from the past year mixing away; and the availability of quality professional level IR's - LeCab, Red Wire and OwnHammer - to work with.

I am really having fun today working with Alexander "Yek"'s idea here - and ripping away at volume, there is really something quality here that I've not heard before. It just feels 'natural' and dialing up the amps to work with these mixes - incorporating reference mics (hence my "Ref" names for these) is exciting at first blush.

In the past, I just used Far Field alone, I also them mixed far field with more tradition close mic'd options... but never incorporated a closed mic reference mic.

I need to hear these in context live to 'know'. They sound good, feel good and hold up well against my normal 'check' points.
VERY good points in my opinion ... thank you much Scott!!!!!
 

Scott Peterson

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Wow, has this been fun... too cool.

I too have found that a little 'reference mic' goes a long way.

I'm pretty settled right now, at least for live work next time out - with what I am calling "Mix4"

SpeakerA-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-2in.wav,0.85
SpeakerB-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
SpeakerA(or)B-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
SpeakerA(or)B-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
SpeakerA(or)B-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

- On the back/roomL/roomR - I am choosing one speaker (either A or B) and using it for all three; mixing them across different speakers makes it sound 'off' on higher notes for some reason.
- Speaker A can also be Speaker B; works great using one specific speaker (and I do that in my V30 cab IR for instance). But in analog world I have always favored mixing speakers and one of my tenants of my 'rethink/rebuild/reboot' of the Axe-FX was to try to stick to what worked for me in the analog world when approaching things philosophically. (ie. How do I set up my speaker cabs?)

Thanks guys - you made my week with this. This was 1 of 2 things I have had to address, the other being how to control the mix of my delays with my expression pedal. Then I have 100% redone everything I have been doing, which was my 3 week goal (with a week to spare!).
 

randocaster

Inspired
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Quick question Scott. It seems a bit illogical to add both left and right room samples to a mono cab.

But you just gave me an idea. Make 2 of essentially the same IR, but one with the left room, and one with the right room, and pan them hard L/R. YOu would get a consistant overall tone, but maybe with a little natural stereo effect. Or maybe not.

Anyways, thanks for all the work you put into sharing this stuff!
 
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