Red Wirez Cab Impulses

[javajunkie]

Most convolver programs allow you to limit the length of the IR, so you can do some comparisons.

My point is that several IR-related notions - most notably, "room sound" - get bandied about here in a very cavalier manner and that caution is in order when making decisions based on platforms other than the Axe-Fx itself.

Very true.

 

[Deltones]

I found out that using the IR with Kefir in my DAW gives me a much better sound than using the same IR that has been converted for the Axe-Fx.

Of course. I've been making this point all along. You're comparing an IR that is long enough to include room reverberation - exactly how long is not specified - with an IR that is long enough to model the direct response of the speaker, and no longer. This is precisely why I warned against making decisions about Axe-Fx use based on auditions in a computer-based convolver.

The converted SYX file is bassier

This is not a general effect. It will vary widely depending on the direct response of the speaker and the amount and frequency content of the room reverberation in the full IR.

[quote:3j6tqw1i]and I feel there is a blanket-over-cab effect going on with the cab block.

There is not. A 1024-point IR is more than long enough to include all the audible features of a speaker's direct response. If what you hear is muffled - assuming your rig is not to blame - then that is the sound of the IR you're auditioning.[/quote:3j6tqw1i]

Jay,

The rig was the same when I compared between the regular IR and the SYX version. The only thing I did when trying out the Redwire IR's was disable the cab block, and enable the Kefir plugin, and vice-versa. I'm sure you're right on the technical aspect of what you explained above, but to my ears, blanket-over-cab effect and bassier is what it felt like when using the cab block. I'm not saying the sound is bad with the SYX loaded, but for me, the RedWire IR's I tried by themselves going through Kefir sounds much livelier and pleasing and I don't intent to use the cab block anymore except for practical reasons. It's really fun discovering them in both format in any case :mrgreen:

By the way, with this little discovery, I wouldn't mind if you could post your Eminence 1258 IR's in wav form somewhere. I liked them in SYX format, but I'm sure I will like them even more after discovering this.

 

[mitch236]

I'm sure this has been asked before but is there any chance that Cliff will (or even could) increase the ir length capabilities of the Axe?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

The rig was the same when I compared between the regular IR and the SYX version. The only thing I did when trying out the Redwire IR's was disable the cab block, and enable the Kefir plugin, and vice-versa.

You left out a step, then. You need to audition the IR in Kefir at the same 2048-sample length the Axe-Fx uses. It will then sound identical.

The Axe-Fx cab block does not alter the sound of IRs.

By the way, with this little discovery, I wouldn't mind if you could post your Eminence 1258 IR's in wav form somewhere.

No. I'm happy to give away the existing .syx files, but I won't ever be distributing .wavs free of charge. Because I'm still not entirely comfortable with the associated IP issues, it is not clear if I will sell any of my IRs.

I liked them in SYX format, but I'm sure I will like them even more after discovering this.

Done correctly - as I describe above - they will sound identical. You are confusing room ambience with speaker response.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I'm sure this has been asked before but is there any chance that Cliff will (or even could) increase the ir length capabilities of the Axe?

Search is your friend. Cliff already did this. The original IR length was 512 samples, and he had to find major memory savings to get to 1024 samples.

Guys, I'll repeat this again, because y'all are completely missing the boat here. The cab block in the Axe-Fx does exactly what it is supposed to do: it recreates the direct response of the cab. For that purpose, 1024 samples is more than is ever required. In order to create a room response entirely in an IR, it would have to be more than 100 times as long. This ain't gonna happen in the Axe-Fx, nor is it likely to happen in anything near the price point in the forseeable future.

 

[mworkman]

I may be missing the point but it isn't clear to me why people want the IRs long enough to capture "the room." If you did that doesn't then the cab block become kind of a cab/reverb block only each IR can have only one "type" of reverb, that of the room the IR was captured in.

So now we have a IR for a given speaker, potentially multiplied by the different cabs that speaker can be in, multiplied by the number of mics, and further multiplied by the number of mic distances and positions. Would you then need to further create IRs of all those combinations in different rooms.

It seems very simple to me to have the cab block represent just the speaker, cab, mic, position and distance where the distance isn't enough to pick up any of the room. Then I can place that virtual cab setup in any room I want with the reverb block in the Axe-FX.

I would seem to me that if you did capture any kind of room in the cab block and further wanted to use the reverb block that things would get messy because it would be like the cab and the room captured by the IR in the "space" created by the reverb block say a hall.

I am not trying to call anybody or say that one approach is better than another. Given my (limited) understanding of things I am having a hard time understanding why you would want any room in the IR when it appears you have more simplicity and flexibility in a cab block, reverb block combination.

 

[Deltones]

I may be missing the point but it isn't clear to me why people want the IRs long enough to capture "the room." If you did that doesn't then the cab block become kind of a cab/reverb block only each IR can have only one "type" of reverb, that of the room the IR was captured in.

So now we have a IR for a given speaker, potentially multiplied by the different cabs that speaker can be in, multiplied by the number of mics, and further multiplied by the number of mic distances and positions. Would you then need to further create IRs of all those combinations in different rooms.

It seems very simple to me to have the cab block represent just the speaker, cab, mic, position and distance where the distance isn't enough to pick up any of the room. Then I can place that virtual cab setup in any room I want with the reverb block in the Axe-FX.

I would seem to me that if you did capture any kind of room in the cab block and further wanted to use the reverb block that things would get messy because it would be like the cab and the room captured by the IR in the "space" created by the reverb block say a hall.

I am not trying to call anybody or say that one approach is better than another. Given my (limited) understanding of things I am having a hard time understanding why you would want any room in the IR when it appears you have more simplicity and flexibility in a cab block, reverb block combination.

You're not wrong in what you're saying. However, in the end, you tend to choose the IR your find sound best to your ear, captured room or not, part of the cab block or not. In my limited testing of the few Redwire IR's I tried, I found out I prefer them going through Kefir instead of the cab block.

Jay is great in explaining what is going on technically. But my post above, in this instance was more like "Yep, this soup is salty exactly to my taste" while Jay is countering more from this point of view:

"Well, not exactly. It's when you combine the Na and the Cl going out of the shaker that the soup is given the proper result" :mrgreen:

 

[Scott Peterson]

I am partly, I think, to blame here.

I don't care about the science nor the actual 'why' regarding the 'what' I am doing; I simply used the stereo room IR and another closer mic'd IR and liked what I heard. I recorded it, shared my 'discovery' and then folks just assumed what they assumed. I never said, nor claimed, the room IR was adding "the room" for what that's worth. I am thinking that was an assumption folks just made.

To me, personally, I don't care about 'why' I am actually hearing what I am hearing. I just care about the end 'what' I am hearing. And feeling. I'm happy and just wanted to share what formula *I* found that worked. I never claimed why or how it works/doesn't as any sort of privileged information and frankly I don't care about any of it.

The end 'thing' is what matters, no matter WHAT, HOW or WHY I got there. I just wanted something specific, a balance that works for MY taste and found it. It's a CAB IR, not a ROOM IR. It's created using a mic in the room and time aligned. That adds some sort of 'body' to the tone of the final result that REALLY makes me smile. I have never claimed that the use of a IR could add in a room verb. As Jay rightly points out, you'd need a MUCH longer sys file to pull that off. The CAB block is for CAB tones and uses convolution to get there. The reverb block is for reverb and uses algorithms to get there. If you prefer convolution reverbs, you need to use a DAW. Apples/Oranges.

Onward....

 

[kev]

If you're using the axe live, then the 1024 IR length is plenty long enough as Jay said. Capturing the room sound with the IR doesn't make much sense unless you are playing live in a perfectly dead space. The room IR mixed with the close IR does add a slight dimension to the cab.

Where I find the room IR's to be the most use is when recording. I much prefer the natural reflections of the cab in a nice room to using a reverb to artificially reproduce it. You need to use an IR plugin in your DAW to get the most out of these IR's when recording. If you pull up these IR's in a wav editor, you'll see they are much longer than 22ms (1024), well most of them. I haven't looked them all. They still sound pretty darn good out of the axe's cab block but better when used at full length in a plugin, IMO.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

But my post above, in this instance was more like "Yep, this soup is salty exactly to my taste" while Jay is countering more from this point of view:

"Well, not exactly. It's when you combine the Na and the Cl going out of the shaker that the soup is given the proper result" :mrgreen:

No, you completely miscronstrue the situation. My "point of view" is to state a simple fact: the cab block in the Axe-Fx does not change the sound of an IR. In your comparison, you auditioned two different IRs: one of some unspecified length that contains speaker sound plus room ambience, and the same IR shortened to 1024 samples, which cannot contain room ambience.

Those two IRs will sound different if you try them both in Kefir. Which stands to reason, because they are different. That's neither a technicality nor an opinion, it is a very simple, straight forward fact.

 

[javajunkie]

But my post above, in this instance was more like "Yep, this soup is salty exactly to my taste" while Jay is countering more from this point of view:

"Well, not exactly. It's when you combine the Na and the Cl going out of the shaker that the soup is given the proper result" :mrgreen:

No, you completely miscronstrue the situation. My "point of view" is to state a simple fact: the cab block in the Axe-Fx does not change the sound of an IR. In your comparison, you auditioned two different IRs: one of some unspecified length that contains speaker sound plus room ambience, and the same IR shortened to 1024 samples, which cannot contain room ambience.

Those two IRs will sound different if you try them both in Kefir. Which stands to reason, because they are different. That's neither a technicality nor an opinion, it is a very simple, straight forward fact.

To elaborate. Take Kefir, turn the length down to .02 or .03 then compare them.

 

[Tom Wilson]

Wow, I tried the Red Wirez IR's with LAConvolver, really impressive

Haven't loaded them into the Axe yet.. may not for a while since I'm just tinkering in the studio with the Axe

 

[TimmyM]

Mike @ Red Wirez,
Just wondering how you are going loading up that Axe-FX converted file like you said you would for people that purchased your IRs? I don't feel like downloading that big file of WAV again.

Cheers,

TimmyM
PS. Yes I already converted them myself with Albert's converter, but I'm pedantic and want the Cliff versions if possible.

 

[redwire]

Mike @ Red Wirez,
Just wondering how you are going loading up that Axe-FX converted file like you said you would for people that purchased your IRs? I don't feel like downloading that big file of WAV again.

Cheers,

TimmyM
PS. Yes I already converted them myself with Albert's converter, but I'm pedantic and want the Cliff versions if possible.

I was called away to Sydney on my "day job", jet-setting computer programmer extraordinaire. Been here for about a week. So, I haven't been able to work on it like I thought. It requires me to add a few new features to the download system.

By the end of next week, I should have a separate update posted. I'll send out a mass email to owners when it's up. I have found time to enjoy Sydney a bit, so there's really no excuse Sorry for the delay.

 

[TimmyM]

Mike @ Red Wirez,
Just wondering how you are going loading up that Axe-FX converted file like you said you would for people that purchased your IRs? I don't feel like downloading that big file of WAV again.

Cheers,

TimmyM
PS. Yes I already converted them myself with Albert's converter, but I'm pedantic and want the Cliff versions if possible.

I was called away to Sydney on my "day job", jet-setting computer programmer extraordinaire. Been here for about a week. So, I haven't been able to work on it like I thought. It requires me to add a few new features to the download system.

By the end of next week, I should have a separate update posted. I'll send out a mass email to owners when it's up. I have found time to enjoy Sydney a bit, so there's really no excuse Sorry for the delay.

Oh mate! Your'e only up the road from me. I'm in Canberra (3 hours drive down the highway). Enjoy Sydney. There's lots to see in Australia. Too bad you don't have your equipment with you for taking IRs. I'd get you down here to take a few IRs of my hand made 4x12 cabs by Achillies. One set has V30s, the other are G12H. I've even got a studio up the road I could rent out to do it in...

TimmyM

 

[redwire]

Oh mate! Your'e only up the road from me. I'm in Canberra (3 hours drive down the highway). Enjoy Sydney. There's lots to see in Australia. Too bad you don't have your equipment with you for taking IRs. I'd get you down here to take a few IRs of my hand made 4x12 cabs by Achillies. One set has V30s, the other are G12H. I've even got a studio up the road I could rent out to do it in...

TimmyM

Sounds like fun! Jeez, I'm a geek. I'm sure it'd be a blast explaining all the gear to customs

 

[shaddow]

Just so I am sure, after reading this whole thread, are the great responses I'm seeing here from people recording their tones or also from those using FRFR systems and listening in the room? I am about reading to pull the trigger on a Standard and use a QSC K10 and figure these IRs will add to the sound I'll be getting using that vs. an amp+cabinet type setup.

 

[iaresee]

Just so I am sure, after reading this whole thread, are the great responses I'm seeing here from people recording their tones or also from those using FRFR systems and listening in the room? I am about reading to pull the trigger on a Standard and use a QSC K10 and figure these IRs will add to the sound I'll be getting using that vs. an amp+cabinet type setup.

I'm using them both ways. Scott P has recorded his rig with them and uses them live. They sound great in both applications. My FRFR monitor is not a K10 though. I use a Yorkville E10P.

 

[Scott Peterson]

What Iaress says. I use a FBT 8ma in the room and on the gig. It's been KILLER with these user IR's so far. I have 3 gigs and a rehearsal between Wednesday - Sunday and I'll report in after that run too.

 

[hp/mp]

How often and soon will the current big box be updated? I know if you buy the big box you get a discount for future updates, but if I'm thinking about just waiting until it's updated (if it's in only a month or few) and buy it then.