Reality check tonight

[Bman]

What is puzzling is that when A/B ing you thought you had the sound. Then when you were in a band context it sounded bad. I’m assuming that’s a frequency issue. I’d definitely try the advise given above for the cuts and boosts on the EQ.

But remember you if you’re sending you amp signal with the power amp working you’re guitar amp’s power amp is also working which can get weird. A Solid state amp might be a solution if you want to keep your cab onstage. The most important thing, IMO, is that FOH signal sounds good.

I don’t think anyone has said it but you’ll probably struggle if you’re using the fx loop and sending a signal to FOH. In my mind you’d want two amp blocks. One with pwr amp on and cab simulation going to FOH. The 2nd with pwr amp off and no cab sim to the on stage amps FX loop. The AX8 can only do one amp block.

 

[maxdown]

i've always wondered how people use the FRFR to FOH and real amp/cab on stage with the same amp block. over the years, many have told me that they focus making the tone sound good for them on stage through the real amp/cab, and the FOH send sounds "how it does" and the FOH guy EQs it as needed.

Yep - that's the way I reckon. Get things sounding right for you on stage and pick a cab IR that sounds somewhat similar for the FOH feed. If there's a little too much low/mids/highs on the FOH tone then that can be fixed by EQ on the FOH desk.

I actually did set everything up at gig volume.

But did you have the rest of the band there too? It's pretty hard to judge the right amount of mid and gain when just listening to yourself .... it might sound great but add a bunch of other instruments and monitors stealing frequencies and it can sink.

I've been gigging about a thousand years and still to this day I always get caught out trying to approximate what my stage level is when creating a preset. Well in fact I know what it is because I can just fire everything up with the same levels last used on stage and compare old to new for volume matching .... but I always have to turn down because in isolation it just sounds painful. A rock drum kit and small stage just forces backline volumes to be silly but by the time I've got the stage levels right during the soundcheck I think my ears are in shock and the guitar seems just about audible.

If only every stage had at least a 12 foot distance between the drums and everyone else .......

 

[studiodunn]

i've never been able to take a preset intended for FRFR and simply send it without cab sim to a real amp and have it immediately sound good. admittedly i don't use real amps at gigs, and only for testing here and there. but i feel that the amp block needs to be adjusted for your real cab and power amp, just like you would for the simulated ones.

Not wrecking a preset trying to get it to work in an unitended manner was my first priority....especially after buying them. I really just tried focusing on EQing into my set up and not changing the presets tone. There in lies the problem. Presets aren't created with a back line in mind.

so i'd say if you need to use the real amp/cab setup on stage, spend time with that and adjust the amp block. however, i'm not sure turning down the Input Trim and relying on the real amp/cab for breakup is the way to go.

That will be my next approach, but unfortunately it really makes the AX8 less appealing. The idea of great FOH without micing and still having an amp on stage was my #1 draw. I love the abilities and possibilities, but was really wanting a stage first unit.

I don’t think anyone has said it but you’ll probably struggle if you’re using the fx loop and sending a signal to FOH. In my mind you’d want two amp blocks. One with pwr amp on and cab simulation going to FOH. The 2nd with pwr amp off and no cab sim to the on stage amps FX loop. The AX8 can only do one amp block.

2 amp blocks makes this a completely different issue. If I'm prioritizing here, i don't need the AX8 to sound great on stage - I need it to make me sound great in the mix. I have amps that sound great on stage, but almost never sound great coming back in my monitors...if there are any.

But did you have the rest of the band there too? It's pretty hard to judge the right amount of mid and gain when just listening to yourself .... it might sound great but add a bunch of other instruments and monitors stealing frequencies and it can sink.

My band mates are cool guys, but I'm sure no one wants to play along for a couple hours while I create presets. I'm sure Some EQing could have helped, but I am talking about not hearing of feeling the AX8 in rehearsal. There was a fundamental missing that was more than adjusting frequencies.

I've been playing the same rig in the same rooms with the same guys for a long time. I'm pretty sure I am in the same db ball park on the amp. That is also why I used an A/B switch from my guitar to the AX8 and the input of my amp. I switched between the two to compare tone and volume of what i know and what I was creating when I was making up presets.


It really comes down to me wanting the AX8 to do something it might not do for me. I have allot of directions to go, so I'll just keep plugging away and learn as I go. For now I am going to Treat the AX8 as a preamp and dial in preamp tones that work for this rig. If I can't then i move to the next set up and so on.

 

[chris]

That will be my next approach, but unfortunately it really makes the AX8 less appealing. The idea of great FOH without micing and still having an amp on stage was my #1 draw. I love the abilities and possibilities, but was really wanting a stage first unit.

don't get me wrong. this is definitely possible and a major benefit of the AX8 and Axe gear. other people do it successfully. i'm just saying i personally haven't spent much time with this approach, and simply bypassing the Cab hasn't sounded immediately good for me.

i don't think it will take much work, i'm just saying it's not immediate, in my experience. others here do this every gig and they sound great. hopefully they can chime in.

 

[Habuman]

Since some have good sound and some don't depending on the setup, give this try. Take the FX loop and PEQ out of the chain. I use the below setup to FOH and sometimes using a Magnum 44 to a Marshall cab. I also use the same setup at practice sometimes going into the FX loop of a JCM 800 or into a Headrush FRFR. Everything sounds good. I have set Output 2 to echo Output 1.

 

[studiodunn]

don't get me wrong. this is definitely possible and a major benefit of the AX8 and Axe gear. other people do it successfully. i'm just saying i personally haven't spent much time with this approach, and simply bypassing the Cab hasn't sounded immediately good for me.

i don't think it will take much work, i'm just saying it's not immediate, in my experience. others here do this every gig and they sound great. hopefully they can chime in.

I agree. I'm sure a flat response amp will make a huge difference.

Since some have good sound and some don't depending on the setup, give this try. Take the FX loop and PEQ out of the chain. I use the below setup to FOH and sometimes using a Magnum 44 to a Marshall cab. I also use the same setup at practice sometimes going into the FX loop of a JCM 800 or into a Headrush FRFR. Everything sounds good. I have set Output 2 to echo Output 1.

Are you playing with another guitar player, specifically someone playing a loud tube amp?
What adjustments did you make in the power section(s) of your presets?
And you are Sending the cab block through your 800 and it sounds ok?

thanks

 

[Habuman]

I agree. I'm sure a flat response amp will make a huge difference.



Are you playing with another guitar player, specifically someone playing a loud tube amp?
What adjustments did you make in the power section(s) of your presets?
And you are Sending the cab block through your 800 and it sounds ok?

thanks

The other guitar player uses a H&K Tubemeister 36. I have not change anything in the power sections. Yes, I keep a cab block in the chain and do not disable the cab sim. It works for me and sounds good. Never had a complaint about one from FOH or other guitar players.

Here is a live video. I'm on the left with red guitar. To FOH - Output 1 and to Marshall cab with Magnum 44 - Output 2.

 

[Ben Holbrook]

The other guitar player uses a H&K Tubemeister 36. I have not change anything in the power sections. Yes, I keep a cab block in the chain and do not disable the cab sim. It works for me and sounds good. Never had a complaint about one from FOH or other guitar players.

Here is a live video. I'm on the left with red guitar. To FOH - Output 1 and to Marshall cab with Magnum 44 - Output 2.

Your rig sounds fine to me, Habuman… good job.

 

[2112]

FWIW I find tweaking advanced parameters is best once you've got a basic amp + cab sound that's working in the mix. Get a base tone that has it's own space with the rest of the band and then use the advanced stuff to hone the feel and dynamics to what you like without compromising the bigger picture.

 

[BillHoudini]

The live clip sounded great Habuman!

 

[Cam Heiliger]

The reality is that this unit requires a lot of experience. I can't speak to running it through real amps and cabs, but I am a big believer in keeping things simple, especially when you are learning how to use the AX8. Running direct to an FRFR without tweaking the advanced parameters will yield you good tone in a short amount of time that you can then tweak to become great tone as you get to know the device and how it responds to your guitars, your rooms, your band, etc. I understand that many use the AX8 in the way you are describing and it works for them, but it definitely takes a lot more time and effort. If you wind up with great tone through FOH and mediocre tone on stage you are going to be uninspired. A quality FRFR with good EQ and cab block settings will give you the "feel" at stage volume and allow you to hear what the crowd is hearing with only minor tweaks. Also, instead of using a parametric eq, use the hi and low cuts in the cab block. That will save you a block. 100-120k on the low end, and 5000-6000 on the hi end works well for me. I also set the proximity parameter to 1 which helps with that "amp in the room" feel/sound. I have had the AX8 for over 2 years and I still learn new things about it weekly and tweak my presets accordingly. The learning curve is real, but once you get the hang of it, this thing can do pretty much anything and will make your gig setup a breeze. Good luck!

 

[Bman]

I also set the proximity parameter to 1 which helps with that "amp in the room" feel/sound.

This is where I'm at with my quest. The proximity parameter seems to be a dial to taste and each IR responds differently. After GEQ'ing in low mid boost for thump and it still sounding like ass, I'm taking the GEQ block out and tweaking this parameter to get the thump. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to try it in a band context to see how it sits with in the mix.

Also, I'm not sure if I want to touch the speaker response frequency with a FRFR. I've seen @2112 s video for dialing it in on a regular guitar cab but am not sure you're supposed to with a FRFR.

 

[Rayos]

The most important thing, IMO, is that FOH signal sounds good.

I agree.

 

[studiodunn]

At this point I am going to back up, and start with one simple goal. I want the Ax8 to take the place of my amps. So instead of worrying about the 40 things it can do, I’m going to focus on the most important..... replacing an amp.

A simple guitar>amp block>output to tube amp fx loop. I’m sure this is not ideal, but it’s what I have at the moment. My cabinet is stereo so I’ll A/B the Ax8 and the real amp through the same cab and speaker.
I’ll turn PA off and just dial in preamp tones. With the PA off I don’t have any advanced parameters to use and I’ll just focus on core tones.....like a real amp.
The beauty of the AX8 is I can just make new banks with PA on, IRs and all the bells and whistles for DI and FOH.

Thanks for all the help

 

[Tpj1333]

Not wrecking a preset trying to get it to work in an unitended manner was my first priority....especially after buying them. I really just tried focusing on EQing into my set up and not changing the presets tone. There in lies the problem. Presets aren't created with a back line in mind.

That will be my next approach, but unfortunately it really makes the AX8 less appealing. The idea of great FOH without micing and still having an amp on stage was my #1 draw. I love the abilities and possibilities, but was really wanting a stage first unit.



2 amp blocks makes this a completely different issue. If I'm prioritizing here, i don't need the AX8 to sound great on stage - I need it to make me sound great in the mix. I have amps that sound great on stage, but almost never sound great coming back in my monitors...if there are any.



My band mates are cool guys, but I'm sure no one wants to play along for a couple hours while I create presets. I'm sure Some EQing could have helped, but I am talking about not hearing of feeling the AX8 in rehearsal. There was a fundamental missing that was more than adjusting frequencies.

I've been playing the same rig in the same rooms with the same guys for a long time. I'm pretty sure I am in the same db ball park on the amp. That is also why I used an A/B switch from my guitar to the AX8 and the input of my amp. I switched between the two to compare tone and volume of what i know and what I was creating when I was making up presets.


It really comes down to me wanting the AX8 to do something it might not do for me. I have allot of directions to go, so I'll just keep plugging away and learn as I go. For now I am going to Treat the AX8 as a preamp and dial in preamp tones that work for this rig. If I can't then i move to the next set up and so on.

Do you have power amp modeling bypassed

 

[Tpj1333]

Don’t have peer amp modeling turned on
Create your own ir plug out put 2 into your amps Fx loop and make a mic only ir and you’ll have your power amp in the ir it works really well you can make your foh and cab soud identicle this way
I have a preset on axe change under tpj33 called 5150blue it’s for atube power amp

 

[marcusio]

Let me say something. I understand that everyone has their needs, but modelers are born for a specific reason: to play as similar as possible to the original amplifier, with the advantage of portability. To achive that you need to use the whole chain amp+cab+mic and that's the reason modelers were created for. This is the optimal use condition. Using a modeler into a real amplifier, yes, in some cases it can also work, but it will never be the ideal condition. Personally i have been a Kemper user for quite some time and recently I also bought the Ax8, just to make a comparison between the two systems. Given that in terms of sound quality i do not see big differences, I can still say that the Kemper has a different approach than the Ax8. The Kemper in fact exists in two versions: unpowered and powered. The second one was designed to be able to exploit a real guitar cabinet, excluding the cab sim section. Personally I use the unpowered Kemper because to me the best sound is in any case obtained by going direct, but anyway I know many users of the powered version that are very satisfied with that. The kemper, however, is not a modeler, but uses a different technology, which is known as "profiling", so for example it is also possible to profile the direct sound of a "pre" excluding the final section since the beginning of the process. This usually leads to a better sound when using a guitar cab. The Ax8 is instead a pure modeler, which in my opinion simply expresses the best of itself by going direct into a PA.
So my suggestion is to use the Ax8 direct into a PA. That's always the best option for a modeler. In the case, however, you still prefer to use a guitar cab I suggest you to try a powered Kemper with "direct" profiles.

 

[Gui Freitas]

Let me say something. I understand that everyone has their needs, but modelers are born for a specific reason: to play as similar as possible to the original amplifier, with the advantage of portability. To achive that you need to use the complete chain amp+cab+mic and that's the reason modelers were created for. This is the optimal use condition. Using a modeler into a real amplifier, yes, in some cases it can also work, but it will never be the ideal condition. Personally i have been a Kemper user for quite some time and recently I also bought the Ax8, just to make a comparison between the two systems. Given that in terms of sound quality i do not see big differences, I can still say that the Kemper has a different approach than the Ax8. The Kemper in fact exists in two versions: unpowered and powered. The second one was designed to be able to exploit a real guitar cabinet, excluding the cab sim section. Personally I use the unpowered Kemper because to me the best sound is in any case obtained by going direct, but anyway I know many users of the powered version that are very satisfied with that. The kemper, however, is not a modeler, but uses a different technology, which is known as "profiling", so for example it is also possible to profile the direct sound of a "pre" excluding the final section since the beginning of the process. This usually leads to a better sound when using a guitar cab. The Ax8 is instead a pure modeler, which in my opinion simply expresses the best of itself by going direct into a PA.
So my suggestion is to use the Ax8 direct into a PA. That's always the best option for a modeler. In the case, however, you still prefer to use a guitar cab I suggest you to try a powered Kemper with "direct" profiles.

perfect

 

[Rex]

It sounds good until the band kicks in. Then you get buried?

More mids.

 

[alphahot1]

I'm still not sure about what setup do you have but in my experience, unless everyone is using IEM (or at least monitoring), the best combo is solid state amp + guitar cab. Anything else is less than ideal.
Maybe you can get passable results if you were the only guitar in the band, but it's always a miced guitar sound through PA speakers, very different from a real cab.