Reality check tonight

studiodunn

studiodunn

Member
So I will start by saying, the FAS is a mind boggling piece of technology. What Cliff and all the contributors have created is amazing. And this forum is a wealth of information and knowledge. I bought the Ax8 based on the reputation of FAS. This post is in no way a rant.
I have only spent 15 or so hours with my new Ax8. I know it’s not enough and I obviously haven’t mastered setting it up.......but man did I sound like ass at rehearsal tonight. My cleans sounded good, but My gain tones sounded very digital and uninspiring.

3 days ago I started fresh with th AB dream rig pack. My testing and building setup was monitors, a FRFR speaker and an amp/cab. All in the same room. I actually had an A/B switch into the input of my amp and the into the Ax8 > FX loop of amp > 2x12 with Creambacks. I wanted to keep a good perspective here. I always like to match my amp tone first to give me a base line. I’ve owned an Atomic and a Katana, so I’m no stranger to modelers or the reality of jamming alone vs. band mix. I also took breaks from the stage volume set ups to give my ears a break. Just like mixing, this is a huge reality check IMO.

I watched every video I could find( thank you everyone....Leon Todd, you are are a content ninja) and tried every logical trick and tip I could. And they worked!
I created a preset for my Setup, used The AB amp setting, played, tweaked, played, tweaked, took breaks and did it again. I had ten presets that I knew would get me through any gig and easily handle a simple rock rehearsal. I thought.
I got to the rehearsal early to hear everything in the room and double check my levels. Everything sounded good...not blowing me away good, but good.

As soon as we started the first song, I just got swallowed in the mix and became very digital sounding. I was sizzly, boomy, bright and just struggled to feel my amp. The other guitar player said I was loud, yet I couldn’t find my space. We are loud, no doubt about it, but the translation from setup to live was brutal.

This is obviously a new user/transition issue, but I am sure the fix loop/guitar cab route is not going to work for me. I have tried FRFR and didn’t bond, so I’m thinking a SS amp may be my next approach

On a positive note, the Ax8 sounded great direct In church
 
Set up your patch at live volume chose the amp model that has the best gain structure for your playing and turn the input trim down slightly listen to how it sounds and where it sounds the best do the same with the master volume if its a mv amp model
There’s also a control called supply sag that will help dial in your perfect power amp gain structure moving the b time constant just slightly to the left will help open up the power amp gain a little
 
Tpj1333 said:
Set up your patch at live volume chose the amp model that has the best gain structure for your playing and turn the input trim down slightly listen to how it sounds and where it sounds the best do the same with the master volume if its a mv amp model
There’s also a control called supply sag that will help dial in your perfect power amp gain structure moving the b time constant just slightly to the left will help open up the power amp gain a little
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response and advise.

I actually did set everything up at gig volume.
Also, my first adjustment to all the AB presets was to lower the input trim and rely on my power amp and speakers to handle more of the break up.
I spent most my time with the sag, B+ xfrm match, dynamics.....I was deep. And agin, has it sounding great across all three setups but just didn’t translate live.

I really thought I had things much closer than they were.
 
studiodunn said:
So I will start by saying, the FAS is a mind boggling piece of technology. What Cliff and all the contributors have created is amazing. And this forum is a wealth of information and knowledge. I bought the Ax8 based on the reputation of FAS. This post is in no way a rant.
I have only spent 15 or so hours with my new Ax8. I know it’s not enough and I obviously haven’t mastered setting it up.......but man did I sound like ass at rehearsal tonight. My cleans sounded good, but My gain tones sounded very digital and uninspiring.

3 days ago I started fresh with th AB dream rig pack. My testing and building setup was monitors, a FRFR speaker and an amp/cab. All in the same room. I actually had an A/B switch into the input of my amp and the into the Ax8 > FX loop of amp > 2x12 with Creambacks. I wanted to keep a good perspective here. I always like to match my amp tone first to give me a base line. I’ve owned an Atomic and a Katana, so I’m no stranger to modelers or the reality of jamming alone vs. band mix. I also took breaks from the stage volume set ups to give my ears a break. Just like mixing, this is a huge reality check IMO.

I watched every video I could find( thank you everyone....Leon Todd, you are are a content ninja) and tried every logical trick and tip I could. And they worked!
I created a preset for my Setup, used The AB amp setting, played, tweaked, played, tweaked, took breaks and did it again. I had ten presets that I knew would get me through any gig and easily handle a simple rock rehearsal. I thought.
I got to the rehearsal early to hear everything in the room and double check my levels. Everything sounded good...not blowing me away good, but good.

As soon as we started the first song, I just got swallowed in the mix and became very digital sounding. I was sizzly, boomy, bright and just struggled to feel my amp. The other guitar player said I was loud, yet I couldn’t find my space. We are loud, no doubt about it, but the translation from setup to live was brutal.

This is obviously a new user/transition issue, but I am sure the fix loop/guitar cab route is not going to work for me. I have tried FRFR and didn’t bond, so I’m thinking a SS amp may be my next approach

On a positive note, the Ax8 sounded great direct In church
Click to expand...
When going into a tube amp fx loop it's better to disable power amp modeling or at least set speaker low and hi resonance to 0 and turn down sag.
If you don't do this you're basically running two power amps in series (sim + real one) and the tone would be much more compressed and mid-scooped than it should be.

Have you tried that?
 
I'll put my money on the FRFR setup. That is the biggest sound difference in that setup. Real cabs vs FRFR and if you're really used to real cabs especially when the other guitarist has a real cab. Don't get me wrong FRFR is amazing but a guitar cab does different things for many reasons, one being the size and speaker design. There are big physical differences. Try an experiment. Turn off power amp and cabinet modeling on the AX8 global page and plug the AX8 into a tube amp return. With the tube amp powering the cab you'll hear the difference of FRFR and real cab. See if that helps, if it does, that's what you're struggling with.
 
I think if you are comparing any modeler (even *GASP*, FAS) through FRFR to a tube-amp-wielding guitar player "in the room" then you are going to always have this type of experience. FRFR and amp+cab just aren't the same. Even plugging a modeler into a effects return of a tube amp just doesn't sound the same.

The good news though, and where most modelers outshine the competition, is through the FoH PA System. That tube amp gets mic'd up sloppily and runs through the FoH and the audience hears a subpar sound, whereas your sound is exactly what you heard back through your studio monitors at home and sounds glorious.

But yeah, if there isn't a FoH PA system and you are just playing live in a room against tube amps, you're gonna have a bad time...
 
Last edited:
I'm hardly an expert - had my AX8 for 1.5 years. But I've not run into the issue's you're describing. So it seems like there is an adjustment somewhere that can be made.

For me, the AX8 can actually have too many adjustments that can be made, which can have me tweaking things I have no business tweaking. Or at least adjustments that aren't improving my tone in the mix. They're just fun tweaks to make.

When setting up my own presets, I find the simple approach is the most useful. Other than setting the cab block High and Low cuts, I pretty much leave the deep editing alone and pretend I've got the basic traditional amp and effects and leave it at that.

Also, the AX8 is so dynamic, I think it's easy to set my stand-alone tone to sound really cool and big. With this, there is a danger of having a really cool sound that doesn't really fit in the mix. Frequencies get lost when the band is layered over the top of it. With this, my only advice would be to focus on mids and don't be afraid to roll off the low and high frequencies (with the cab high-low cuts) in order to focus your tone in the frequencies that guitars generally live in. After all, it's only your tone in the mix that matters.

Since your direct tone at church is working, maybe an eq in front of the the output to the traditional guitar speaker is in order? Dial it in with subtle adjustments in order to get the tone you're looking for? (again, a traditional approach)

Lots of variables here: genre, style of play, sound guy, gear used, etc. 15 hours isn't very long. Give yourself a chance to familiarize yourself with it before you make any permanent decisions. In the beginning, I was really pissed and frustrated. But my simple approach really began to clear things up for me.

If none of this applies to you, then at least I tried.

Good luck!
 
Thanks all.

I have a para eq set before the fix loop that cuts @80 and 8000. This definitely helps focus things.

I was hoping to not need to disable power amp since it really is the key to the amps feel. I lowered all the sag to as low as I could before the amps started feeling lifeless. Amps like the JTM 45 have the sag set so high, cutting it just ruined the character of the amp.
I will try cutting the speaker resonance though.
I plan on going FOH when possible so I’m not going to globally disable the Power Amp.

I actually had all my presets set up with an X/Y setup where I just copied the amp to Y and turne PA off. But after allot of playing them back to back I just liked the PA on, so went back to a clean/dirty X/Y setup.


I’m definitely not giving up or throwing my hands in the air. I’m just more confused at the way things sounded compared to THE WAY THINGS SOUNDED!

I am going to try a SS power amp and had ordered an FX12 speaker. I knew the guitar in the room effect would be my hurdle going into this.
If that doesn’t work I’ll try a Xitone as my last attempt.
 
Last edited:
FWIW: I set my cab low and high cuts has high as 200 on the low. And as low as 4000-4500 for the high. Of course, these vary on the amp and cab I'm using. 8000 on the high end would be really high for me, on average. I would get a harsh fizziness to my tone that I just don't like. Just don't be afraid to really pinch that range down on your eq and see what happens.

Experiment.

Good luck!
 
I never got a good tone using real cabs and real power, I think the great beauty and strength of modelers and especially the ax8 is to run straight to the mixer, with no real cabs
but sometimes it sounds really fizzy, I think it depends a lot on where you are connecting ax8, the type of monitors, the type of pa, if they are aligned, if they are flat, they are many details,

I do not like the tone coming from active speakers, I like the tone in the passive pa, On active speakers at low volume sounds good but always when the volume increases it starts to sound fizzy
 
Last edited:
I really have the amp in the room feel with the JBL EON 610 and/or with the Yamaha DXR10. They are, in fact, amps in the room.

Last Sunday I had a gig with some friends. First time onstage with the JBL and without IEMs.

As I was using a wireless unit, I went out of the stage at the sound check to... Well, to check the sound.

My friend, with his Fender Supersonic 60 combo sounded very good, too loud for my taste. So loud in fact that he wasn't sounding through the PA.

My Ax8 sounded delicious through the PA.

None of them sounded like it had or needed some special "thing" that made it sound more like the real thing.

I only received good comments for my sound after the gig. All the musicians around told me my "amp" sounded much better than the other.

FYI I've been playing tube amps for almost 30 years, so I know how they sound in a room, in a big/little club stage, in an open air stage... I have low wattage tube amps and 100w monsters and all in-between and I really don't think I'm sounding worse this way.

So I'm sure I'm missing something. But, maybe, what I'm missing is not something good.
 
I need my AX8 to replace my amps. I play way to many bars and clubs that have little to no sound support....monitors aren’t even a given. I cannot rely on FOH. If I could then I would resolve to getting used to a FRFR tone on stage, but it’s just not a reality for my band situations.

I plugged directly into my fix looo and if was pretty gritty, so I am going to start with a cleaner power source.

When I had my atomic AA3 I ran it through a Fryette Ps and it sounded great, so maybe I will try that first as my last tube amp attempt.
 
Like @DLC86 stated above, if you're running into your FX loop, you would want to turn the Sag to 0 or power amp modelling off and also you want to remove the CAB from the signal chain that is being sent to the FX loop. This of course means your using the AX8 as a preamp, which is fine and should sound great. Some folks do use pwr amp and cabs but that goes against the norm. Of course if it sounds good then it is good. No set rules.

You said you got a great sound going into the Church PA. It's unclear if you're trying to use both - a guitar amp's FX loop and FRFR or FOH. If so, you're gonna want the pwr amp on so that the signal to FOH or the the FRFR speaker sounds right, which means you'll be tangling with the modeled power amp and the actual power amp from the guitar amp which could introduce a lot of unwanted coloration.

What exactly are you running into? (sorry if I missed that in the posts above).

edit: I have a vested interest in this thread. I've been able to dial in great sounding low volume presets but I'm trying to learn what adjustments need to be made for loud gig/rehearsal levels.
 
Last edited:
I need the AX8 to feed a signal to FOH and a back line. Ruining one feed to make another work just defeats the point of things for me.

And most FOH I will go into do not inspire confidence for just using the mix as my on stage.

FWIW, I’ve heard a Kemper into a guitar cab several times on stage and it sounded amazing. I actually liked it better than the second guitar who was using tube amps. That said, I was in the crowd and hearing the mix so I have no idea what the cab sounded or felt like on stage.
 
studiodunn said:
I need the AX8 to feed a signal to FOH and a back line. Ruining one feed to make another work just defeats the point of things for me.

And most FOH I will go into do not inspire confidence for just using the mix as my on stage.

FWIW, I’ve heard a Kemper into a guitar cab several times on stage and it sounded amazing. I actually liked it better than the second guitar who was using tube amps. That said, I was in the crowd and hearing the mix so I have no idea what the cab sounded or felt like on stage.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm not clear on what your backline amplification system is. Is it a FRFR cabinet, a guitar amp or a power amp with a guitar cab?
 
@studiodunn can you be more specific about how you have configured your patches. If you want a feed to FOH and a feed to a power amp / amp return, I would suggest you need to put the AX8 cab last in the chain and tap off to Out 2 using the FX loop block before the cab to provide the feed to the return of you amp. This is explained in the manual, and maybe you are doing this already but your posts are not very clear, (to me at least!).
 
i've never been able to take a preset intended for FRFR and simply send it without cab sim to a real amp and have it immediately sound good. admittedly i don't use real amps at gigs, and only for testing here and there. but i feel that the amp block needs to be adjusted for your real cab and power amp, just like you would for the simulated ones.

i've always wondered how people use the FRFR to FOH and real amp/cab on stage with the same amp block. over the years, many have told me that they focus making the tone sound good for them on stage through the real amp/cab, and the FOH send sounds "how it does" and the FOH guy EQs it as needed.

i'm sure some have nailed it with more care than just "eh however the full-range send sounds is fine" but i personally can't wrap my head around it. i think those who capture an IR of their actual cab on stage and send that to the FOH with cab block sound the most consistent. it's like using a 2x12 real cab on stage for you, but also using a real 4x12 mic'd in an isolation room for the FOH - drastic differences in tone just due to that.

so i'd say if you need to use the real amp/cab setup on stage, spend time with that and adjust the amp block. however, i'm not sure turning down the Input Trim and relying on the real amp/cab for breakup is the way to go.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom