REAL MIC vs IMPULSE RESPONSE

Which of these takes sounds more real or better to you?

  • The first take on the SoundCloud clip and TEST A in the high quality files.

  • The second take on the SoundCloud clip and TEST B in the high quality files.

  • The sound the same.

Results are only viewable after voting.
ML SOUND LAB

ML SOUND LAB

Cab Pack Wizard
Vendor
It's reveal time! I can't lock the voting but I'll post the final results here: (votes made after this will not be counted for obvious reasons)

CLIP A: 15 votes 37.5%
CLIP B: 15 votes 37.5%
THEY SOUND THE SAME: 10 votes 25%

Results on the second page.

Original post:



Here is a download link to 96khz 24bit high quality stems: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qe456aok5n4c99c/AAAi5EKu8zOfwPxW3tlUZOwaa?dl=0

One of these clips is:
Music Man JP6 + Mesa Mark V + Mesa 4x12 + SM57
... and another is:
Music Man JP6 + Mesa Mark V (slave out) + ML Sound Lab IR of the same mic up

The spark for this comparison started yesterday when Ermin Hamidovic (the guy who masters pretty much all djent music these days) criticized impulse responses. Here's a quote:
One thing that still bothers me about using impulse responses for speaker cabinet emulation is that when it's all said and done, the record is mixed, the guitars nestle within that mix in a strange way. That last 5% of tone which IRs don't capture, those dynamic, saturating elements are key to a guitar sound having the musical interplay I like to hear.
Click to expand...

I have to start by saying that I have huge respect for Ermin. I learned much of my mixing reading his tutorials on forums years back. That being said, this is a topic I know quite a bit about and I disagree with him. I think there has not been a fair apples to apples A/B test to blame IR's.

Being the one who makes the IR's for the most popular artists that he usually works with, this really got me going I'll be honest. I do this comparison every time before I start shooting any official IR's. For all the audio nerds there, I always make a phase reverse test comparing a mic vs IR and once I get something ridiculously quiet I know I'm good to go. In layman's terms, this makes sure that the IR is doing exactly the same thing as the real miked up cabinet is doing. Real mic signal [minus] IR signal [=] silence. That's the logic essentially.

Truth be told, if we were to start finding things to develop in impulse responses I can already name a couple of things:
  1. raw non-mpt'd IR format as the industry standard
  2. full length high quality 170ms IR's, some claim 500ms but there's something wrong with the room if you get much content after 170ms
  3. IR producers stop post processing IR's (you know who you are :) )
  4. will 24khz 24bit stand the test of time? let alone kemper's 44.1khz?
  5. ... is something I'm working on ... ;)
Back to the comparison. Please vote for which version you though sounded more real. The high quality files are in the same order as the soundcloud clip so "TEST A" is first and "TEST B" is second in the soundcloud clip.
 
Last edited:
The closeness of these 2 clips is ridiculous. Absolutely amazing job Mikko !!

I found that Clip B had a HAIR more sub and super highs - and I mean less than 0.5dB difference at best.

IMO there is absolutely no way to say one is "real" and one is not from these samples, and certainly no way to say that 1 is better than the other. Haters gonna hate.
 
SilentUnderground said:
The closeness of these 2 clips is ridiculous. Absolutely amazing job Mikko !!

I found that Clip B had a HAIR more sub and super highs - and I mean less than 0.5dB difference at best.

IMO there is absolutely no way to say one is "real" and one is not from these samples, and certainly no way to say that 1 is better than the other. Haters gonna hate.
Click to expand...
Thank you buddy! I actually meant to post a match EQ of the difference. This is the strictest most accurate match EQ setting on iZotope and it's still a flat line except for 0,4dB below 50hz and then the high end weirdness after 15000hz. Other than that it's a +-0,1dB type thing.



EQ-wise we should be pretty much okay. Also the phase reverse test shows that the phase information is pretty solid as well.
 
I've actually just started cutting off my Axe-FX Cab block at 8-10 khz. To my ear, it sounds much better with just about every patch.
 
favance said:
I've actually just started cutting off my Axe-FX Cab block at 8-10 khz. To my ear, it sounds much better with just about every patch.
Click to expand...
Well, there are many problem areas up there so if the microphone was placed badly then I recommend doing that. 10khz is okay, I do this when using PA speakers because they don't handle the driven uber high end very well. For recordings I don't recommend doing that inside the unit. I'd much rather do it in post to fit the track. 8khz is maybe a little bit too low for my tastes.
 
I am going with 2 being my slightly preferred it’s a little warmer but the difference is so small I would be guessing
A little more warmth and roundness and airiness in 2 w headphone

As for the amp I’ll say 2
 
They're REALLY freaking close! A sounds slightly cleaner to me...I think there is ever so slightly less hair on it than on B. As to which one is the real mic...Hell...I don't know. They both sound great!
 
I'm sure once I reveal which is which we will get more of the "now I hear it, the real mic has definitely this and that" but before I do so I want to see whether this poll starts to lean towards either option. I'll sleep on it. :)

I personally think that the current IR accuracy that I'm able to get is pretty much perfect. I doubt anyone would be able to tell out of context that one of these has a digital cabinet simulation on it.
 
I liked the first section of the SoundCloud clip slightly better. Comparing the last part of each section, the first was slightly more articulate, where the second part seemed slightly more smoothed over, if that makes sense.
 
They both sound good. A sounded slightly better to me. B sounded duller than A to my ears. I listened to the wav files on Adam a7x’s and I have no idea which is which. It boiled down to personal preference.
 
I voted B while listening on a iPad. But now, on my monitors, they are the same. It's just that the final section of A is wide stereo and the beginning of B seems like mono-centered. Same riff but not the same thing so it tricks the judgement as I haven't remember the beginning of A while listening to B. And so, I liked the more compact sound of the beginning on the iPad, that's why I voted B.

But for me, A/B playing them a few times, I cannot hear difference.
 
Okay so based on the current votes only 26.3% think that they sound the same. :( Is this the truth or is this placebo or what is it? Well let's take the test a bit further. Here are two clips where I phase reverse one of the takes. What this means is that it becomes simple math. One take (minus) the other take so what will be left is "the difference". A 100% perfect phase reverse would be just silence. It gets pretty damn quiet so we're getting really close to that 100%:



That phase reverse will show you that I recorded this in the same room 2 meters away from the mic. You will hear the click track, ambience and my strumming coming from the microphone version. I didn't do this at the studio and now I'm regretting it quite a bit. But... even with this difference, would you hear it in a mix? Here's a phase reverse test in that mix I posted before. Can you even hear the phase reverse noise in this version?

 
When you know that you should be listening to 2 different things, you tend to hear 2 different things. And sometimes, you can even hear things in your head without external source :p
 
OldSnail said:
When you know that you should be listening to 2 different things, you tend to hear 2 different things. And sometimes, you can even hear things in your head without external source :p
Click to expand...
This is exactly the case. Are the differences big enough to matter? I mean if I wouldn't have said that one is an IR would anyone have dared to question it? This is what we're talking about at the end of the day.
 
B is clearly the mic. You can hear the ambiance between the palm mutes. The first clip is slightly more sterile. They are pretty closed, but not identical. In a mix, it wouldn't make a difference.

I could be completely wrong too but that's what I heard first listen. haha.
Strangely. The more I listen to both, the harder I can tell. I guess I'll stick with my intuition.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom