Real Mesa TC100 vs AF3 into guitar cab - looking for advice

[Rekster]

Hence my question above - what's specifically missing with Axefx tube power amp modelling (or setting of) that's so present in an LxII
or similar - Axfx can't be bang on in it's accuracy and yet there's a night and day difference with real tubes at the end - it can't be both.

Darn tootin, I'm gonna get me one a them there Lx thingys n try it out.

Darn tootin? Haha haven't heard that one in a while. What do you play through sprint?

 

[Rekster]

Hence my question above - what's specifically missing with Axefx tube power amp modelling (or setting of) that's so present in an LxII
or similar - Axfx can't be bang on in it's accuracy and yet there's a night and day difference with real tubes at the end - it can't be both.

Darn tootin, I'm gonna get me one a them there Lx thingys n try it out.

To answer your question The preamp modelling is spot on. I've done some A/B comparisons with the AF3 and my Mesa TC100 and Cliff nailed it. I also really don’t think there’s anything wrong with the power amp modelling. It’s just a feel and response thing using a tube power amp through a traditional guitar cabinet. A solid state amp doesn't provide the same response. Of course if you are focusing on using an IR through studio monitors you will have the most accurate mic'ed representation ever. In my humble opinion of course...

 

[sprint]

Darn tootin? Haha haven't heard that one in a while. What do you play through sprint?

Matrix Gt1000fx to 2xMesa 112 ported widebody cabs (V30s) - p.a. modelling on / cab modelling off on clean > gainy Mesa patches (JP2C, TC...).

Alternatively, 2 EHX 44 Magnum pedal SS power amps (very clean) to 2 Atomic FR cabs.

Alternatively, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors.

Alternatively, fx return of a partially attenuated (or not but I like it partially attenuated) 5w Blackstar tube combo to an openback 212 with Mesa C90s - p.a. modelling off / cab modelling off on clean to gainy Mesa/Marshall patches.

Basement player only - lowish volume.

I sometimes swap the Ehx pedal amps to the Mesa 112s - sounds a bit warmer to me.

I get no "a-ha" moments from the tube combo fx return but it's budget friendly tube amp so ...

 

[sprint]

To answer your question The preamp modelling is spot on. I've done some A/B comparisons with the AF3 and my Mesa TC100 and Cliff nailed it. I also really don’t think there’s anything wrong with the power amp modelling. It’s just a feel and response thing using a tube power amp through a traditional guitar cabinet. A solid state amp doesn't provide the same response. ..

Agree, it's the p.a. section, having followed various related threads with acute interest for a long time. But I'm not convinced it's a deffiiency in SS power amp (Matrix) as that feel and response should be getting produced / modelled in the Axefx's virtual power section with p.a. modelling on and interacting with real cab via IC settings, no? (as opposed to in the flatish Matrix tasked solely with volume increase). Many say that response / feel is in Axefx + SS/real cab and that it's all in the settlngs used to bring it out (the LxII/5050 threads seem to suggest "nope - gota have real tubes")

Edit - surprised u have p.a. modelling off with LxII but if it's an amp model with gain mostly in the preamp then makes sense (if it was a model with a lot of coleration / gain in poweramp section then I'd bet you'd need p.a. modelling on).

 

[Stratman68]

I am with you on that "thud" brother. I has the characteristics of a rubber band, and I've given up trying to make any Mesa amp model get that tight, choked-off, chunk-chunk that you hear Petrucci do at least once in every video he's ever done. Seems to me you shouldn't have to reach into the deep parameters to get it to do that. If, for example, you can get a real DR to sound that way, I don't know why I find it impossible to replicate it in the Axe III. (But I'm past trying, since it's close enough for me for now.)

Love your Avatar!!!!!!

 

[Chris Hurley]

Interesting. I asked Dave @ Fryette about this with the Lxii and af3 and he said “PA modelling off”. Whatever works for you of course. In fact both sound good, just different.

You might want to turn the simulated speaker impedance curve resonances in the fractal down a bit or all the way- since you are getting the simulated effects on top of what the tube poweramp naturally does... but if it sounds good to you as-is, stick with it.

 

[sprint]

You might want to turn the simulated speaker impedance curve resonances in the fractal down a bit or all the way- since you are getting the simulated effects on top of what the tube poweramp naturally does... but if it sounds good to you as-is, stick with it.

Not 100% sure as I'm not at my Axe right now but I think he'd have to turn p.a. modelling on to use the speaker page. That's a cool idea though - to be able to set IC with p.a. modelling
otherwise off.

 

[la szum]

This is where I'm heading now. I started this post as I was really struggling with the Matrix as a power amp into my Mesa 2x12 cabinets. It just didn't feel right and there was frequencies and response that was lacking. Running the AF3 into the power amp of my TC100 was a night and day difference. So I've put an order in for the LXII. Crossing my fingers this will get me where I want to be!

Multiple users can't be wrong. I have noticed a number of users struggling with the Matrix, especially
replicating the low-end thump and push of a tube power section. At this point, I don't think it can be
a deficit in anything but the Matrix. It just seems incapable of delivering like a tube power section in
an actual amp.

Look forward to your thoughts on the Fryette when you get it.

 

[sprint]

At this point, I don't think it can be a deficit in anything but the Matrix. It just seems incapable of delivering like a tube power section in
an actual amp.

curious as to how one concludes this if using Matrix with Axfx p.a. modelling on, given that it's Axefx that's modelling the tube power section characteristics in conjunction with Cab via IC.

Not trying to argue but I bought Matrix based on the premise that going 100% digital with a real cab option meant having all the tubes modelled in the modeller, and a SS amp (Matrix) solely tasked with volume increase. Can we really point to Matrix as a point of deficit when it's doing what it's supposed to within the intended architecture?

 

[laxu]

While I don’t have a pure solid-state amp, I did some testing with my BluGuitar Amp 1 and Fryette PS-100. Swapping the speaker cable between the poweramps so the cab is the same and running the same signal from Axe-Fx 3 to both, there was only a small difference between them. I used the Dumble model with an edge of breakup tone and the Fryette was a bit fuller sounding than the BluGuitar at the same volume as measured with a decibel meter. The difference could be compensated by adjusting amp model EQ for example or throwing in a graphic EQ block.

The far more important thing for feel was matching the impedance curve of the speaker cab used. This took some trial and error to find for both of my cabs. I knew the 4x10 Brit JTM45 curve got the closest to my 4x10 with 10" Greenbacks so I used this on the amp model. I felt this, rather the poweramp, was the real key to getting it sounding and feeling right.

So maybe what you need is to figure out what is the best match for your cab and then adjust the amp model controls for that last mile.

 

[Chris Hurley]

Not 100% sure as I'm not at my Axe right now but I think he'd have to turn p.a. modelling on to use the speaker page. That's a cool idea though - to be able to set IC with p.a. modelling
otherwise off.

PA modelling has to be on to adjust that, but when you reduce them, the effect of "stacking power amps" is somewhat diminished, especially if you're not running your playback amp wide open

 

[Chris Hurley]

Multiple users can't be wrong. I have noticed a number of users struggling with the Matrix, especially
replicating the low-end thump and push of a tube power section. At this point, I don't think it can be
a deficit in anything but the Matrix. It just seems incapable of delivering like a tube power section in
an actual amp.

Look forward to your thoughts on the Fryette when you get it.

The matrix has a "meekness" to it that I never could fully escape. You could dial it up against a tube poweramp on a switcher so that they sounded the same when you went back and forth, but when I would play one for a while and then switch to the other, I would have that "oh, there it is" moment. It wasn't volume. I tried to find the correct LF resonance (including buying the Dayton device to measure it.) etc... There is something to it that is missing, despite our vehement protestations to the contrary.

The matrix weighs nothing, sounds agreeable and seems to be super reliable- I'm not bagging on it. It's a great value- it just always sounded sorta slightly tame to me. Now I will say that the matrix doesn't sound SICK like a lot of amps do. Not sick as in good but sick as in "screws up your tone." That is a good achievement because some poweramps do make the modeler sound like its got radiation sickness or something.

I had the Fryette too at the same time- I think you have to defeat/neuter the speaker impedance curve modelling on the Fractal (one way or the other) if you're running it into the tube poweramp. Otherwise (at least with my speakers and the amp models I ran), it wouldn't sound right.

 

[laxu]

I had the Fryette too at the same time- I think you have to defeat/neuter the speaker impedance curve modelling on the Fractal (one way or the other) if you're running it into the tube poweramp. Otherwise (at least with my speakers and the amp models I ran), it wouldn't sound right.

I thought that at least with relatively modest 90 dB @ 1m volumes using the right impedance curve sounded much better than using e.g the resistive load setting. Much closer to a real tube amp when attenuated via the Fryette PS-100. The wrong impedance curve made it feel and sound off whereas the resistive load was identical to running the real amp with that setting using the Fryette load switches - dull sounding and "meh" feel.

 

[RDeraz]

I'm wondering if what you all are actually hearing is the difference between an EI transformer and a toroidal transformer?

 

[Leise]

I used my Axe 2 with the Matrix and a Mesa 20/20 with Deep mod.Went to the Axe 3 and used only the Mesa.

Tryed the Matrix but didn`t like it because off the missing lowend

A few weeks ago i bought a Syn 5050 and didn`t want another poweramp.

I´m very happy with it

 

[Emt142]

You probably already tried this but I had great success making the axe fx match the Rockerverb I used to have by using the 10 band eq to dial in that thump you are talking about. Different amp so I don’t know if it will work the way it did for me. Hope you get it sorted out. I can honestly say I made the axe fx sound identical to a Rockerverb and a 5150iii but I was also using a tube power amp so that may have an impact.

 

[yoitsmegabe]

I used my Axe 2 with the Matrix and a Mesa 20/20 with Deep mod.Went to the Axe 3 and used only the Mesa.

Tryed the Matrix but didn`t like it because off the missing lowend

A few weeks ago i bought a Syn 5050 and didn`t want another poweramp.

I´m very happy with it

I'm quoting you but this is for anyone to answer. Is it that the matrix is missing thump/low end or are these tube power amps coloring the sound by adding thump/low end?

 

[sprint]

I'm quoting you but this is for anyone to answer. Is it that the matrix is missing thump/low end or are these tube power amps coloring the sound by adding thump/low end?

I spoke to that point a few posts back here and here and elsewhere - I don't think Matrix is supposed add any tube color / thump (that should come from the modeller's virtual p.a.), but folks seem intent on the idea that there's a problem with Matrix.

 

[yoitsmegabe]

I spoke to that point a few posts back here and here and elsewhere - I don't think Matrix is supposed add any tube color / thump (that should come from the modeller's virtual p.a.), but folks seem intent on the idea that there's a problem with Matrix.

Thats what I was wondering. I have a matrix gt1600fx into a stereo mesa 4x12. I don't have any missing thump using the matrix with the axe fx mark IIc++ model compared to my mark V 90w in mark II mode head going into the same cab. I know that's only one amp out of 230+ in the unit so it's not a comprehensive example.

 

[squealie]

I've been really enjoying my Crown amp. I get that there are way better power amps. I played my Ultra and Axe-2 through my Marshall 50/50 tube amp and was always more than happy.

I'd love to hear from guys that are using Lab-Gruppen or Macintosh amps. Slew rate, headroom, that sort of thing.