Real Mesa TC100 vs AF3 into guitar cab - looking for advice

[Chris Hurley]

In one of the many power station threads on TGP someone had linked a video with Steve Fryette speaking to someone, I think it may have been just a part of a longer interview/discussion, where Steve talks about the Suhr reactive load, the Boss TAE (it may have been in a Boss TAE thread now I think about it) and the power station loads, about why he decided on a tube amp, versus Boss' decision to use a solid-state amp.

If I recall correctly, I think it was something like you describe - it was his design decision for part of the reactivity to come from the reactive load in the power station, the rest of it to come from the direct coupling of the power station's tube power amp and the cab. From what everyone says about the sound and response of the power station, I imagine it is pretty heavily damped (as long as presence/resonance are set low) and therefore shouldn't react a ton to the impedance curve of the cab, then you've got a reactive load element that is maybe toned down a bit from something like a suhr. I have seen plots of the impedance curves and the low resonant peak in the Suhr is higher than that of the power station (then you can make it smaller if you want, depending on the switch selections on the front).

Makes sense- I notice right away when comparing the powerstation to the matrix (on an amp switcher again) that the powerstation high end is much more present- even with the presence all the way down. I chalked this up to the reactivity, because I detect it when I compare the powerstation against other solid state amps I have too, though the matrix seems a little subdued in the high end compared to other solid state amps that I own.

Don't get me wrong- I love the matrix for what it is. Crazy crazy light, well behaved, powerful, sounds good, lasts long time

 

[BBN]

Turn down xformer match to add body and level cities. I think its match - whatever is next to drive lol.

Yes, I found lowering the Xformer match was one of the more impactful tweaks I made, when trying to match my Marshall.

 

[cardinal]

I have not read all the responses here but I generally play the AFX through a power amp/cab and also try to match the real amps I have here.

My observations:
1) Even the same model of cabs will sound different. Setting up the Fractal on one cab and the amp on the other unfortunately won't help much for exactly matching them. I know this from experience. Some cabs are just warmer, thumpier than others for reasons I cannot explain.

2) The default Fractal models do sound different from my real amps, but not in consistent ways. For example, Brit 800 seems more compressed and chewy and bass heavy than my 2204, but the 6505 model is not compressed enough and lacks bass compared to my 5150. So it'll be very hard to get pointers about a specific amp because it's going to be different from one amp to another.

3) Ultimately different doesn't mean worse. In clips, some people have preferred the Brit 800 to an actual '78 2204. At some point you kinda have to try to embrace the Fractal for what it is.

 

[BBN]

I have not read all the responses here but I generally play the AFX through a power amp/cab and also try to match the real amps I have here.

My observations:
1) Even the same model of cabs will sound different. Setting up the Fractal on one cab and the amp on the other unfortunately won't help much for exactly matching them. I know this from experience. Some cabs are just warmer, thumpier than others for reasons I cannot explain.

2) The default Fractal models do sound different from my real amps, but not in consistent ways. For example, Brit 800 seems more compressed and chewy and bass heavy than my 2204, but the 6505 model is not compressed enough and lacks bass compared to my 5150. So it'll be very hard to get pointers about a specific amp because it's going to be different from one amp to another.

3) Ultimately different doesn't mean worse. In clips, some people have preferred the Brit 800 to an actual '78 2204. At some point you kinda have to try to embrace the Fractal for what it is.

Great points.

I'll add that once I 'figured out' the right advanced tweaks to make the Axe sound 'right' through my Mesa 4x12, I started immediately apply these settings to any amp, and right off the bat, it was good. Tweak a little from there, and I've liked more and more amps.

I know there is a post/tutorial to determine the right resonant frequencies for your cab. I wish I took that more seriously (earlier).
Once you do figure that out, it makes it much faster to get any amp in the fractal to sound great.

 

[laxu]

I love the powerstation for everything it can do, though the only thing I think it really nails is being a tube amp louder/quieter maker. All the other duties are handy extras and poweramp for fractal is one of those.

Because it is a tube amp that exhibits speaker reactivity, you still have to get into the Fractal speaker impedance curves and get them right for the combination. If you don't dial down the fractal speaker resonances, you will effectively be doubling them since you'll be simulating it first and then adding to it again when driving the actual speaker. I've never fully understood why this isn't a problem when the Powerstation is amplifying a reactively loaded tube amp because in theory they should be the same. This is one of those things... what is that expression? In theory they should be the same in practice but in practice they are not? The answer that "The fractal is not a real tube amp" was not particularly satisfying. I suspect it may be as simple as "The powerstation reactive load is calibrated to work well with the natural speaker reactivity of its embedded tube amp." I've never seen anyone come out and say that from Fryette, so I may be off base.

Anyway, I think it really can be as simple as "dial down the resonances when using the power station" if one can get out of their own way and not get too hung up on "but but but what about the audience being 1% different?! That is intolerable!!" The sound guy can add/subtract a little high/low if needed if your DI feed isn't as lively as the stage. And if one of us has to sacrifice something, it can be the audience because they largely don't care anyway. When I sacrifice, it affects my performance and they do notice that.

There is a thread on TGP that was illuminating where Dave@Fryette talked about the issue of power amp coloration due to filtering and voicing and apparent coloration due to the tube amp reactivity with a speaker. Its not exactly like an EQ boosting bass and treble gain in the poweramp, but it resembles it in a lot of ways.

The Fryette PS absolutely can benefit from tailoring the Axe-Fx speaker impedance curves.

I've tried my FM3 through it and feel that the "resistive load" setting gives more authentic results. That said, if you play at low volume, trying to match with an impedance curve that works best with your cab might be worth exploring because some extra hyped highs and lows might not sound or feel bad at all! I found that with my closed back 4x10 cab the JTM 4x10 impedance curve worked better and the 4x12 curves behaved in a way that I can only describe as unnatural somehow, like the low end response is wrong. With more common 4x12 cabs you might not run into this sort of issue.

I've also tried the Fryette PS with Line6 Helix and NeuralDSP Quad Cortex and both sounded great too, but since they have no controls for speaker impedance curve it's easy to get more hyped highs/lows which at lower volume can make it sound bigger because of equal loudness curves and all that.

My only complaint about the Power Station is that at low volume they are a bit noisy due to the fan. My PS-100 is less noisy than the PS-2 I had was so they have probably improved the fan behavior or used a better model.

I've found the Fryette to be as neutral as I've ever had a tube amp be. Obviously it will add some character if you really crank it but at clean headroom settings should be quite transparent.

For an Axe-Fx I would probably go for the LXII instead as it is stereo and is already a rack unit. You can always add the loadbox part in with the Fryette Powerload, Suhr Reactive Load, that new Redseven loadbox etc.

 

[Thomas Obester]

The Fryette PS absolutely can benefit from tailoring the Axe-Fx speaker impedance curves.

I've tried my FM3 through it and feel that the "resistive load" setting gives more authentic results. That said, if you play at low volume, trying to match with an impedance curve that works best with your cab might be worth exploring because some extra hyped highs and lows might not sound or feel bad at all! I found that with my closed back 4x10 cab the JTM 4x10 impedance curve worked better and the 4x12 curves behaved in a way that I can only describe as unnatural somehow, like the low end response is wrong. With more common 4x12 cabs you might not run into this sort of issue.

I've also tried the Fryette PS with Line6 Helix and NeuralDSP Quad Cortex and both sounded great too, but since they have no controls for speaker impedance curve it's easy to get more hyped highs/lows which at lower volume can make it sound bigger because of equal loudness curves and all that.

My only complaint about the Power Station is that at low volume they are a bit noisy due to the fan. My PS-100 is less noisy than the PS-2 I had was so they have probably improved the fan behavior or used a better model.

I've found the Fryette to be as neutral as I've ever had a tube amp be. Obviously it will add some character if you really crank it but at clean headroom settings should be quite transparent.

For an Axe-Fx I would probably go for the LXII instead as it is stereo and is already a rack unit. You can always add the loadbox part in with the Fryette Powerload, Suhr Reactive Load, that new Redseven loadbox etc.

Good points.

My ps-2 has very silent fan when played at ca. 70db. I couldn’t ask for lower noise tbh.

In my experience, I have my output knob on fryette set exactly at 9:00 with out1 knob on fractal set to 2:30, preset level around 0-2db and with chugs the db meter shows me around 115-120db and the response from fryette is still very clean. I have to bump the out knob on fryette to around 10:30 to start hearing compression from driving it’s power amp hard, but then we are talking about 125 db and that’s just silly loud

 

[Chris Hurley]

For an Axe-Fx I would probably go for the LXII instead as it is stereo and is already a rack unit. You can always add the loadbox part in with the Fryette Powerload, Suhr Reactive Load, that new Redseven loadbox etc.

The powerstation is pretty inexpensive when you factor in the fact that it has a great reactive load on board. Thats part of its appeal, I suppose. I got an X-Load when I sold my powerstation and I like it, but wish it was adjustable like the Fryette. It does however have a blue light when you play, which is nice. haha.

 

[Randalljax]

bumping this one back up as I love the amp model and just played one locally .

So a few Things , since the Pres is in the preamp I am guessing that could be simulated with the high treble
but then what should the presence and death settings be ? should they be dropped to 0 on are they neutral at 12 o'clock, since there is no depth .
Also the tight switch sounds like it may be doing more than just a tube screamer and it is changing the voicing of the amp , any ideas maybe it is like the shred mode on the JP2c?

Finally the Hi Channel of the crown appears to have a bit more gain and saturation at similar settings

 

[Frodebro]

bumping this one back up as I love the amp model and just played one locally .

So a few Things , since the Pres is in the preamp I am guessing that could be simulated with the high treble
but then what should the presence and death settings be ? should they be dropped to 0 on are they neutral at 12 o'clock, since there is no depth .
Also the tight switch sounds like it may be doing more than just a tube screamer and it is changing the voicing of the amp , any ideas maybe it is like the shred mode on the JP2c?

Finally the Hi Channel of the crown appears to have a bit more gain and saturation at similar settings

I have a TC50 head, and the gain in the Hi channel would probably be best described as "different" from the Lo (blue) channel. The high channel tends to be a bit thicker sounding with the same settings as the Lo channel, but the low channel is more than capable of screaming on its own, especially with the drive switch engaged.

What's really cool is the clean sounds you can get out of the Hi channel with the gain dialed back-it's surprisingly nice.

 

[Randalljax]

Here is another interesting thing I noticed about the TC m although it claims to be Brit Based many say it not a Marshall tone
Upon going through the Amps I noticed that all the Marshalls had a tone stack frequency of 600HZ and other than the Jube have a cathode follower
The Triple Crown is a plate driven tone stack no cathode and its tone stack frequency is 700 HZ on the Axe
as I mentioned there is one other British voiced amp that matches the Tone stack of 700. and ironically is also a plate driven design without cathode and runs EL34s
The Hiwatt

 

[79_limited]

Following this thread since I picked up a used TC100 for a good deal this week. Love my Axe III and FM9 but the only thing Fractal has not modeled is the heat put off tubes which is handy during the wintertime haha.

In all seriousness what allured me to the TC1000 was the power scaling across the three channels. Not sure if i have seen that before In one head. I also wanted a second rig that I can just grab and go and the TC1000 covers a lot of ground. The midi control was also a big plus which will pair well with my FM9. Possibilities are endless with the amazing Fractal routing.

I second what others have said about the Matrix vs PS2/LXII. I have had the Matrix on two different occasions and despite a lot of effort the Fryettes just worked with less fuss. I have not tried the PS100 but would love to some day. I also have the Atomic 50/50 and it is rarely mentioned) probably due to low production) but it is also a strong contender. Warning: it takes two people to move the 50/50.

For years now I have read a lot of back and forth about cab resonance and dialing that in with the Fractal gear. I do believe this is the new frontier with modeling because a huge piece of the modeling equation is the cab itself. A lot of people want to hear their exact “amp” sound and feel modeled when at the end of the day many times it is their cab they really want to hear.

Current state is their is no easy way to dial cab resonance without going deep (not that I am aware of). It not like I can just go to the manual and see the frequencies for any given cab. Once someone figures out that out for the average person i think modeling will jump to the next level.

 

[Rekster]

Following this thread since I picked up a used TC100 for a good deal this week. Love my Axe III and FM9 but the only thing Fractal has not modeled is the heat put off tubes which is handy during the wintertime haha.

Don't forget the smell, we need a smell replicator as well lol! I don't know what it is, but whenever I fire up my TC100 there's a distinct and very pleasant odour produced by those tubes warming up.

In all seriousness what allured me to the TC1000 was the power scaling across the three channels. Not sure if i have seen that before In one head. I also wanted a second rig that I can just grab and go and the TC1000 covers a lot of ground. The midi control was also a big plus which will pair well with my FM9. Possibilities are endless with the amazing Fractal routing.

Yes, the MIDI control is perfect for this! With 4CM you can use Fractal preamp modelling for tons of versatility, or if you just want to use pure TC100 tones and the Fractal for effects you can do this as well. With MIDI you can even switch channels in your presets. Such a great combination!

I second what others have said about the Matrix vs PS2/LXII. I have had the Matrix on two different occasions and despite a lot of effort the Fryettes just worked with less fuss. I have not tried the PS100 but would love to some day. I also have the Atomic 50/50 and it is rarely mentioned) probably due to low production) but it is also a strong contender. Warning: it takes two people to move the 50/50.

This is where I'm heading now. I started this post as I was really struggling with the Matrix as a power amp into my Mesa 2x12 cabinets. It just didn't feel right and there was frequencies and response that was lacking. Running the AF3 into the power amp of my TC100 was a night and day difference. So I've put an order in for the LXII. Crossing my fingers this will get me where I want to be!

For years now I have read a lot of back and forth about cab resonance and dialing that in with the Fractal gear. I do believe this is the new frontier with modeling because a huge piece of the modeling equation is the cab itself. A lot of people want to hear their exact “amp” sound and feel modeled when at the end of the day many times it is their cab they really want to hear.

Current state is their is no easy way to dial cab resonance without going deep (not that I am aware of). It not like I can just go to the manual and see the frequencies for any given cab. Once someone figures out that out for the average person i think modeling will jump to the next level.

 

[Kriig]

I use the (Mesa) 5 band eq at the end before going out my Mesa 295. Magic!
RS made great eq bands for guitar, without the need to make it complicated.

 

[BBN]

Current state is their is no easy way to dial cab resonance without going deep (not that I am aware of). It not like I can just go to the manual and see the frequencies for any given cab. Once someone figures out that out for the average person i think modeling will jump to the next level.

You can try to do it by 'feel' using a sine wave (Cliff's description here).
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/about-matching-your-cabinets-resonant-frequency.79816/

What I did (which was very non-scientific) was - sit in one spot with a looper running a riff. First listen to my Marshall tube rig and try to best remember what the low end sound/felt like. Flip over to my Axe/Solid State Amp....scroll through the Speaker Impedance Curve options, and I found the PV6160 sound the most accurate (with my Mesa Traditional w/V30s). I bumped up the Low Res amount to get it even closer.

Now I apply those settings to any Amp I pull up in the Axe, and the results are really good, right off the bat.
After dialing in 9 different high gain amps, my ears were starting to bleed, so I walked away from it for a few days.
Went back this weekend and turned on my Axe...and the presets I had created sounded amazing. Best tones I've ever had from any gear.

 

[Rekster]

I just wanted to follow up on this thread I started earlier this year. I ended up contacting Fryette and decided to give the LXII power amp a shot.

All I can say is wow! Nothing at all against Matrix, they make a great product and are amazing to deal with. I will continue to use the GT1000FX with full range speakers when that makes sense. But a tube power amp into a traditional guitar cabinet makes all the difference in the world. My tones pop out. I’m not chasing anything or tweaking at all. I take my presets, shut off power amp modelling and disable the cab block. Bingo my cabinets are singing away. Palm mutes resonate. All frequencies pop out. I know Cliff mentioned using Fryette power amps in the past and just using amp modelling in the Axe FX. This is the way to go if you want the traditional guitar cabinet sound and the flexibility of the preamp tones and effects in the Axe FX 3. Not to mention Dave @ Fryette is amazing. Extremely knowledgeable and provides some of the best support out there. (Beyond the amazing folks at Fractal Audio )

I now have the best of both worlds. Studio monitors with IR when recording. Traditional guitar cabs for volume and inspiration. Now I can focus on my music again.

Thanks again to both Fractal Audio and Fryette Amplification. The absolute best companies in the world for music gear.

Cheers all.

 

[79_limited]

I just wanted to follow up on this thread I started earlier this year. I ended up contacting Fryette and decided to give the LXII power amp a shot.

All I can say is wow! Nothing at all against Matrix, they make a great product and are amazing to deal with. I will continue to use the GT1000FX with full range speakers when that makes sense. But a tube power amp into a traditional guitar cabinet makes all the difference in the world. My tones pop out. I’m not chasing anything or tweaking at all. I take my presets, shut off power amp modelling and disable the cab block. Bingo my cabinets are singing away. Palm mutes resonate. All frequencies pop out. I know Cliff mentioned using Fryette power amps in the past and just using amp modelling in the Axe FX. This is the way to go if you want the traditional guitar cabinet sound and the flexibility of the preamp tones and effects in the Axe FX 3. Not to mention Dave @ Fryette is amazing. Extremely knowledgeable and provides some of the best support out there. (Beyond the amazing folks at Fractal Audio )

I now have the best of both worlds. Studio monitors with IR when recording. Traditional guitar cabs for volume and inspiration. Now I can focus on my music again.

Thanks again to both Fractal Audio and Fryette Amplification. The absolute best companies in the world for music gear.

Cheers all.

I have both the Fryette PS2 and LXII. These are designed to be used with power amp modeling set to “On” since these are designed to be neutral.

 

[Rekster]

I have both the Fryette PS2 and LXII. These are designed to be used with power amp modeling set to “On” since these are designed to be neutral.

Interesting. I asked Dave @ Fryette about this with the Lxii and af3 and he said “PA modelling off”. Whatever works for you of course. In fact both sound good, just different.

 

[sprint]

Lots of posts lately about the wonders of tube power amps like LxII, 5050 vs SS (Matrix) with real cabs. Keeps adding fuel to my wondering about what's missing in terms of dialing in Axefx virtual power section models - I suspect it's to do with IC but dunno - mysterious.

Anyway - congrats!

 

[Rekster]

Lots of posts lately about the wonders of tube power amps like LxII, 5050 vs SS (Matrix) with real cabs. Keeps adding fuel to my wondering about what's missing in terms of dialing in Axefx virtual power section models - I suspect it's to do with IC but dunno mysterious.

Anyway - congrats!

When playing through a traditional guitar cabinet it's night and day. In fact I have two Mesa 2x12 Vertical Cabs setup with the LXII so I can pull off the stereo thing as well. It's the closest thing to having the real amp in the room with you. I'm reworking my presets with two signal chains. One outputs to my LXII and Mesa Cabs. The second runs through a cab block and has power amp modelling on. So I can get that amp in the room vibe through guitar cabs while jamming, and at the same time record direct to Logic with an IR and PA modelling on. Man, I don't know if everyone truly appreciates how versatile the AF3 is. Pure innovation. (Just fix that darn USB latency reporting issue and it's perfection. ;-) )

 

[sprint]

When playing through a traditional guitar cabinet it's night and day.

Hence my question above - what's specifically missing with Axefx tube power amp modelling (or setting of) that's so present in an LxII
or similar - Axfx can't be bang on in it's accuracy and yet there's a night and day difference with real tubes at the end - it can't be both.

Darn tootin, I'm gonna get me one a them there Lx thingys n try it out.